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Map: Forgotten Lakes v1
 Forgotten Lakes v1
Title: [A] Palladium (minelo 2.4k+)
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.12.9.1
Engine version: 105.1.1-2511-g747f18b
Battle ID: 2068298
Started: 3 months ago
Duration: 17 minutes
Players: 8
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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Team 1 Won!
Chance of victory: 67.3%
XP gained: 105
SErankPLT_Godde
DErankHoppili
USrankcooolcat1239
DErankSkel
Team 2 Lost
Chance of victory: 32.7%
XP gained: 86
RUrankizirayd died in 16 minutes
GBrankDasFapitale died in 17 minutes
PLrankChudy died in 17 minutes
DErankmuha_toro died in 17 minutes
Spectators
AUrankAdminAquanim




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RUrankizirayd
3 months ago
What happened to swifts? This shit can't beat phoenix and raptor, a player who always makes swifts can't kill a player who makes raptor and phoenixes and ravens
+1 / -0

RUrankizirayd
3 months ago
Remove swifts from the game, why are they needed
+0 / -1

RUrankizirayd
3 months ago
the unit just has 0 dps for 150 metal
+0 / -0


GBrankDasFapitale
3 months ago
They're a bit crap yeah but very important for scouting. Could get a wee buff maybe but not sure what that'd be. Damage maybe but that might mess with thresholds. Cost would make scouting too cheap in teams
+0 / -0
USrankcooolcat1239
3 months ago
burst damage buff can be ok
+0 / -0

AUrankAdminAquanim
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)
In the initial fight around 2:00...

* Having moved his commander to expand, izirayd is floating about 200 metal. cooolcat has kept his commander boosting the airfac.

* izirayd is boosting his swifts into enemy territory to chase a Phoenix. The swifts happen to be facing the wrong way at the critical moment, so they are not terribly quick to arrive.

* While chasing the phoenix izirayd encounters a Raptor from cooolcat and a Flail made by Godde. There is also an opposing Dominatrix in the area.

* Izirayd loses four swifts for the Raptor in this fight. Mostly to the Flail, I think. This game isn't being played on the new patch, but it wouldn't matter since Flail one-hit Swift before and after the patch.

---

Taking an initial poor fight is difficult to recover from in plane vs plane, which is probably especially true for a swift player against a raptor player. South also has an eco advantage, the Flail, a Thresher on the right, and a player with Moderators, whereas North is providing little-to-no AA help other than a few Felons and a Grizzly much later in the game.

Against a player who is making mostly bombers and Raptors, who has AA assisting him, I think I would suggest just making bombers and ground-based AA instead of trying to contest with Swift. Especially on a relatively small map.

tl;dr: I think Swift is fine; the initial fight was lost to fighting over enemy AA and this game generally did not develop in a way that was favourable for mass Swift.

As a more general observation, if you build no bombers then the other team is free to concentrate their slower AA (ground-based and Raptors) in an area they want to bomb, and then force you to fight in that area.
+1 / -0

RUrankizirayd
3 months ago
Aquanim why did you miss the moment where cooolcat1239 loses his first swift for 150 metal and starts to lag behind from that moment, he brazenly makes a phoenix and 1 raptor and my 6 swifts do not kill this raptor? They cost x3 from the raptor. If you count so well, then coolcat1239 made 4 solar, against my 1, which gave me an extra swift.



So the player lost to the swift, then made a phoenix and was left with 1 raptor, this raptor survived the entire salvo of damage from the swifts, turned around and started shooting at the swifts and killed one of them



Why do I need such swifts? I could make 3 raptors instead, but I get a useless unit with 900dmg from 6 swifts that are not able to kill one raptor. I understand if there were two raptors or something like that. When I saw the phoenix I dove in there expecting there to be nothing there or a couple of swifts or something like that, I didn't expect flail but he killed 2 swifts just because I didn't leave the fight to kill the raptor.

quote:
It's hard to recover from a bad initial fight


Well of course another raptor was built and now you need 12 swifts to survive against them with 90% losses
+0 / -0

RUrankizirayd
3 months ago
Swifts got a big nerf in the past, while Phoenix got x2 buf, I don't remember if Raptor got a buff or not. I make Swifts out of habit, according to the old metas, I forgot that Raptor is stronger. Swifts should have gotten a buff, at least their rocket should hit not 150 damage, but about 190-200, but this does not solve their main problem, they are useless on their own, it is more profitable to make Phoenixes. Doesn't this suck?
+0 / -0

USrankCliver5
3 months ago
haha funny bird go woosh
+1 / -0

AUrankAdminAquanim
3 months ago
(edited 3 months ago)
Swift would have to have extremely broken stats for taking a fight over an enemy Flail at minute two to be anything other than air-surrendering. The Flail really has a lot more to do with the events of this game than the details of the matchup between Swift and Raptor.
+0 / -0

RUrankizirayd
3 months ago
quote:
The Flail really has a lot more to do with the events of this game than the details of the matchup between Swift and Raptor.


Flail was a problem that's true, but if swift had higher DPS they would have gone 5-4 instead of 2. I think with a stronger swift I would have knocked down all the phoenixes and ravens.
+0 / -0
USrankPLT_skigear
3 months ago
swifts whole thing is alphastrike with the missiles while raptor is dps
giving swift more dps would be a bit busted
+0 / -0


AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
3 months ago
Swift seemed pretty good there. The opposing air player was very cautious about using their bombers, and against land players that made barely any AA. The Raptor side started losing Raptors when there were too many Swifts, and had to invest quite a bit in ground AA. The Swift dive into the enemy base was a bit questionable, and I was happy that Raptor had a purpose at some point.
+0 / -0