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Shieldbots UP?

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12 years ago
Rick said:
The outlaw really suck btw compared to warriors which are cheaper...I think a range boost to outlaws will make them a proper riot just like the warrior. I do know it has a huge aoe but in 9/10 cases that huge aoe isnt getting used. By the time the raiders entered its aoe range the outlaw will be dead.

And ye fire, gauss and emp all pwn shieldbots since most of their effective strategies require shields. 1 pitbull totally anihilates quite some thugs. 1 pyro kills a thug army. 1 venom stuns them....

The only unit capable of countering some of them is the felon but felon also sucks against long range emp or a pitbull.

Ye i know this isnt about kodachi but shieldbots often get anihilated by a single fire unit.
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12 years ago
Forked this convo from the Kodachi thread.

I'd agree the Outlaw might need a bit more range, and/or instant AoE movement, and/or less AoE range falloff. It is very strong, but it may not have quite the range it needs. Alternatively it could have a little more HP so it survives longer when closer to its targets.

I think it may be worthwhile to consider putting a secondary shield on all shield units: A repulsor field that works vs gauss and flame. We can probably time it so the main shield still takes a tick or two of damage from the projectile, but is then reflected. Guass and fire just ignoring shields entirely is a bit much (EMP already counters shields pretty hard).
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12 years ago
I was already increasing outlaw aoe and am moving Thug weight to 180.
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12 years ago
Really? What do the other devs think, im out of the loop without any chat.

Either way, I think gauss/flame ignoring shields is a problem beyond simply thug or outlaw power.
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12 years ago
I agree with that if you buff their stats they will be op if you dont have flame/gauss/emp but they will still be up if you got flame/gauss/emp. So you might end up with flame/gauss/emp being the only counters to them then.

Through i agree with outlaw getting a range boost. Hopefully that will stop glaives from rushing it so easily.
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12 years ago
I think the Outlaws fire needs to be continuous, not in waves like it currently is.

The issue is that with the speed of Glaives and other raiders, the first raider to enter the fray sets off the first Outlaw wave. Being on the very edge of wave basically means the raider takes almost no damage. By the time the second wave goes off, Outlaw is already surrounded by other Glaives that haven't been hit yet and dies quickly.

The problem is even worse with Scorchers (with longer range and more speed) or Bandits (longer range).

By increasing rate of fire, the Glaives are taking damage (and slowing down) the entire time they are running up to Outlaw. I'd also be in favor of buffing the slow damage and decreasing the physical damage a bit. I think more emphasis on the slow-down feature is good.
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12 years ago
The more I think about it, the more I realize that the biggest problem with Assault Bots is that they are far too "spammy" to really be considered "assault" units.

Thugs: When I look at the primary assault units of each factory, I would choose almost any of them over the Thug. They are almost all higher cost, more powerful units that I can use more effectively. It takes so many of them to actually do damage, and by the time you get enough of them to lead a charge, it's hard to concentrate all that power on a single point because there are too many to get close.

Felon: I think the Felon is a bit of a specialty unit. It's either really awesome or really sucky. I think it's primary weakness is the "true cost" of the unit - you need two shields following it around for it to have any sort of sustained fire. Then those two shields require 14 energy each to recharge, which means you need an entire fusion to sustain the damage. This bring the true cost of a single Felon into the 2500 metal range. Their assualt-then-skirmish gameplay mechanic also leaves them very vulnerable right after their burst damage and doesn't match the assault theme. They have almost no health and rely on their shield for protection. Once their shield has been depleted from firing, a few raiders can easily take them down.

The Racketeer, while useful at times, is also UP. Its base stats look OK, but it's much more micro intensive than other artillery units. Let's take a look at a "standard" artillery unit: something like a hammer, pillager, or even Merl. You point them at the enemy porc wall with a "fight" command. They shoot the nearest target until it dies, then they move on to the next target until it dies.

With the Racketeer, this method leaves you stuck with a dozen racketeers all firing on a single structure. In order to truly use them, you must manually set a target for each of them to spread out their fire (wow, that's a lot of micro). But then, that breaks the auto-skirmish that you need on an artillery unit. So it requires even MORE micro and attention to constantly look for enemy raiders, and if any are spotted heading towards your carefully-targeted Racketeer, you must then retreat the Racketeers, thereby also removing your clever targeting. So while their base stats may look good, the extra micro attention really removes a lot of their usefulness. (Perhaps a smarter auto-skirm for the Racketeers is needed? One that focuses firepower on a structure until it is stunned, and then leaves 1 Racketeer stunning that structure while the other racketeers move on to the next structure?) Also, I feel like the Merl/Racketeer are very similar, but maybe their roles should be switched? Light vehicle already has a more-or-less standard "damage" artillery - the Wolverine. Maybe give the stun arty to the Merl and make Racketeer a standard damage artillery unit.

Roach is probably a little OP for the cost, but that is fine at the moment because of the general UP-ness of shields in general.

Bandit is fine.

Rogue is a bit spammy for an "Assault" unit IMO. It's hard to get enough of them together to do concentrated damage. They end up spread out over a large area, unable to fire.

Vandal: One of the cheapest, spammiest AA units in the game (on par with Jethro). Suffers the same fate as the rest of the shield bots: they are too cheap and it makes it hard to cram so many in a tight space. The is not currently a mobile version of the Hacksaw - maybe something similar for assault bots? A strong AA unit that deal burst damage against air seems much more "assaulty" than a "pew pew lol I'm a vandal" unit.

Outlaw: Already explained their shortcomings. Can't stop crawling bombs. Can barely stop raiders unless hidden behind Thugs' shields to absorb the initial damage.

What I'm getting at is this: you win games by dealing damage, and the assault bots are unable to deal damage effectively. Thug has terrible damage, is easily countered by fire/emp, and because you have to spam so many of them, it's hard to get them all bunched up enough for them to concentrate their fire power. A single tick or roach wipes them out because Outlaw can't effectively stop them. Rogue needs a cost and damage boost, keeping the overall cost/damage ratio about the same but allowing fewer to be made for the same effect. Racketeer needs to be made more useful by making it easier to use (not necessarily buffed, just the necessary micro needs to be removed). The Felon might be OK if the other units get buffed, but at the moment is is the only shieldbot capable of stopping ticks and roaches and it costs too much metal to be used for that role. The vandal is another spam unit that barely does damage.

In the end, I see that cloakys should be comparable to light vehicles, and shields comparable to heavy tanks. Increase their health and damage output. Make them seem like beefy, powerful units that should carry the "assault" name, not another lab full of spam units. I think it will further differentiate the roles of cloaky vs assault and make it a more unique lab.
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12 years ago
The problem with thugs is a problem with shields themselves - they have too many hard counters. The Rogue seems like kind of an artifact - it was created during a time when LLTs were the backbone of CA gameplay, and in that time it was fantastic - a squad of Rogues would go through a defensive line like butter. Now? It seems to be a solution to a non-problem.
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12 years ago
The Racketeer, on the other hand, is a great unit. Simple, nimble, and powerful... it's easy to bring them to bear, they take care of themselves, all you have to worry about is targeting. They're one of the best units for taking down a mobile shield-crawl since they'll naturally keep a safe distance and keep pounding it with stun weapons that are very effective against shields.
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12 years ago
Yeah shieldbots are micro intensive :) Raketeers are great but as many said they stun 1 defender forever and no real damage unless intensive micro with hammers you can forget about them they usually do OK against most of things.
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12 years ago
Antelope, the shieldbot factory is totally not another Tank factory. Its theme is shield balls, packs of small units protected by shields. Its worked really well before, it's synergies are great, it doesn't need to be radically changed. Its problems are just that a lot of weapons have been added that counter the shieldbot strategies (napalm fireballs, flamethrowers and gauss that goes right throjugh thug shields, and EMP weapons). They also need a few more units to have the same lineup and flexibility as more flexed out factories like cloakbot.

Regardless of thugs low weight, its advantage is meant to be that its shields all stack together, making it hard to pick off solo thugs. The problem is units ignoring shields.

Racketeers are meant to be the way for this factory to deal with HLT's. If you're building a dozen of them, you're doing it wrong. You're meant to stun a few important targets, then assault with your shield ball.
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12 years ago
u forgot the most OP unit,
Dirtbag, hard counter to machine gun turrets and good counter to artilary,
Shield bots are very micro intensive being able to set a formation using diffrent unti types and build able to move that formation might make things alittle better for them,

but then it is dam super hard to stop a ball of 3 sheilds 1 felon and a bunch of mixed units i think they are just more resource intensive as they need a good mix of units to be effective.
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12 years ago
i think 2k of sheild bots can easily kill 2k of cloacky or light vehicles
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12 years ago
just wait till that felon meets a firewalker or pitbull....
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12 years ago
Shields only block a projectile if they have more charge than the damage of the projectile. This creates a problem for spammy small shields because much of the charge of the system will not be used. Anyway Thug weight was already increase by abut 12.5%.

Felon is a skirmisher, it is not suppose to fire constantly so it's silly to judge it's cost like that. But even if you do it's like a 2500 cost Mace with 2x damage, 20% more range and the massive advantage of providing an income of several metal when not firing.

Rogue is not assault, it's suppose to work well with Thug and the Thug change should improve this. A lot of the slow movement parts of the factory ends up hinging on Thug.

Outlaw cannot stop bombs particularly effectively but Bandit has decent range for small scale use and Felon kills bombs once you can afford them. I think Outlaw was fairly effective before but I've changed it quite a bit and tested vs many types of raiders. It should now beat many raiders consistently.
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12 years ago
if you're comfortable enough with your micro, the bandits can take care of bombs. You really need to be everywhere and have the reflexes of a starcraftpro though :P
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12 years ago
Yeah dunno how zk would be played with such skills... At first probably there would be opened 1000 critical balance, bugs, abuse bugs and so on :), and I think factory of choice would be cloakies.
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12 years ago
Starcraft pro? As i've said before, the time when I tried exploiting crawlies vs Google, he would get up a radar, tag every single one of them with a point where I burrowed them (He knew they were bombs by their speed and then disappearing from radar suddenly) and then send a single Bandit to assassinate them. Every time I sent in a bomb, his whole army would retreat except for one Bandit charging towards me.

Google isn't a Starcraft pro, but his micro is more than enough. We don't expect everyone to have this kind of micro though, which is why we have units like felons and defenders.
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12 years ago
@Google, I'm curious - is the glut of shield-penetrating weapons a deliberate design decision, or an artifact of the engine? That is, do Gauss weapons penetrate shields by design or because all noexplode weapons automatically penetrate shields?
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Skasi
12 years ago
It only makes sense that Gauss pierces shields. It's a must, if you ask me. What's worse is that aoe ignores shields, it's super silly.

The Pyro problem is a totally different one. I don't see why Pyrons weapon pierces units. I think it would be much better if fire damages units, but also bounces off them - eg to the sides. That'd add some nice additional unique factor to pyros and at the same time not mess with the "aoe"-like power.
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