can we redesign arti in zk? ideas are around the lines of: * no instant hit/alpha allowed * the longer the range, the less splash damage (rogue range splash sounds good?) * SLOW projectiles. everything should be dodgeable if you just move A LITTLE BIT => arti should be effective vs statics (and shields) => arti should be ineffective vs mobiles this is boring, what leads to these boring shildblob stallmates filled with boring artillery, which is boring. other input? and what does it take to make     GoogleFrog be annoyed by arti so it really is changed?
+12 / -3
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I wouldn't mess with arty much, if it were my choice. I'd rather have some more units that are cost-effective in an artillery hellscape.
+3 / -0
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Extra ideas: * bigger trade-off between accuracy/range and damage (there are things that are quite accurate and powerful and long distance) * ammo (similar to planes) - require back and forth to some "depo" to reload (Edit) Idea on shields: * prevent them from stacking (or at least make a minimal distance between shield emitters, so that you can't cluster that many)
+2 / -0
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All good artillery like slings, cerbs, emissaries are slow and dodge-able easily, so you bring them out when there's a stationary and expensive tower you need to take down. What makes them good is the artillery + eventual raiders combo against shield spam and porc. If you want something that tracks mobile units, that's a skirmisher's job. Scalpels and recluse-balls and even racketeers. Wait a minute, is this post a thinly veiled lance hate post?
+2 / -0
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Need more approach options for large games. 1v1 or 2v2 arty is pretty balanced. Think we should re-tool assaults better to hit arty or static and get out. Maybe simple things like give knight more speed but less rate of fire.
+1 / -0
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quote:
Wait a minute, is this post a thinly veiled lance hate post? |
Have you tried to use lance against a shield blob? If anything - as mentioned in the first post - this is against shield blobs stall-mates, for which only solution seems artillery.
+0 / -0
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Yes haha die artillery die ^w^ Zero-k should be about making units and using them to attack the enemy base, not sitting in your base listening to 10 hours of nonestop impaler I don't care how, if you can somehow make zk pots become dynamic games about using units to attack then you will forever be my idol
+0 / -0
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I generally see and play pretty open games. Most of the armed stuff people build is mobile and there is space to move around. It isn't wall-to-wall porc. Of course, porc isn't directly related to arty. I just think that "people spam arty because games are static porc fests" is the main failure mode people think of for the symptom "too much artillery". The other ways for there to be too much artillery seem less egregious to me. Also, if porc isn't the problem, then an assault buff won't do much. Got replays for these shield blob stalemates?
+0 / -0
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Might I remind everyone that the real war is pretty much 90% artillery duel and aviation posturing, with 10% actual slog on the ground? Fundamentally, arti is best at holding ground/pushing porc, but does not win offensives. For that you need assaults. I do not see anything really wrong with arty in ZK. Maybe, just maybe, the idea with ammunition could be a thing, which would nerf things like impaler spam.
+1 / -0
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quote:
Might I remind everyone that the real war |
... has historically mostly been fought using pointy sticks. Which, contrary to the suggestions of most people in this thread, suggests to buff pointed stick units in ZK - namely, Jack and Lance. Fortunately, that buffs artillery and assaults at the same time, guaranteeing that noone will be happy with this proposal.
+3 / -0
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@[GBC]HeadHunter is correct. Even now with the conflict in Ukraine, it's mostly big-time artillery duels and infantry slogging forward to mop up whatever the arty has not killed. Even the good ol tank has gotten it's arse handed to it by Mr Big Cannon Far Away.
+0 / -0
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Big teams suck because very little coordination happens, everyone just plays as if they have 9+ bots on their side. I'd like to see gunships be more viable than just a flying tremor
+1 / -0
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quote:
Got replays for these shield blob stalemates?
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most pot game which is 30+ mins. i just think this is boring and wasting so much time for everyone. i just miss the pace. give us the tools (or in this case, remove the stalemate tools) suggestion: make the changes and make a themed weekend with the precise-no-splash arti. dammit even double the damage but remove splash all together.
+0 / -0
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Replay: http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1713272?By ~30 min there are 37 aegis and 16 aspis and ? funnels By ~35 min there are 45 aegis and 25 aspis and 3 funnels By ~40 min (nuke in between) there are 50 aegis and 17 aspis and 3 funnels By ~45 min (zenith active) there are 53 aegis and 13 aspis and 4 funnels The front kept steady for the whole game. Even with zenith front kept rather steady. This is a game I specced tonight, I feel I have seen worst examples of shield blobs/arty (but maybe I was playing and was worse). Note:    mojjj weren't you playing?! Do you post on the forum while you play?
+1 / -0
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i forumed after resignation...
+1 / -0
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quote:
i forumed after resignation... |
That explains better than my idea that you might have 3 hands and 4 eyes...
+0 / -0
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Well, back in the before times a lot of anti-shield so anti-porc damage came from debuff damage. Currently only Gauss weapons do extra damage vs shields(Not even enough to be relevant), before the massive damage amounts of Disarm, Stun, Slow would burn through shields with ease but now they have large damage reduction when dealing damage to shields. Increase the up-keep price of charging shields so you need economy to sustain heavy porc?
+2 / -0
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quote:
suggestion: make the changes and make a themed weekend with the precise-no-splash arti. dammit even double the damage but remove splash all together. |
Everyone gets impaler, with various art styles? We just need siege-busters. IMO: armed, tanky construction-capable units might do it. Weapons would be suitable for attacking static things (gauss, cannons, slow-moving rockets, etc). Maybe slow-to-aim flamethrowers, or short-range mortars to lob over walls. Maybe capable of transporting crawling bombs safely to the front line. (1) Can remove fortifications, (2) can reclaim metal under fire to hold back the metal donations, (3) can build new fortifications as they advance, (4) too tough for most random arty to kill them. Let the shields stand there, with all the metal tied up in things that can't stop the push. Let the arty fire in vain. Ideally only units are going to stop it.
+0 / -0
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I do wonder whether mobile shield gens are the problem more than anything. They create a situation where no one is actually taking any losses, yet they are too strong to assault with close range units most of the time. The main effective counters are preventing them getting established or mass impaler, which brings me to impalers... I think they need a rework and are close to the strongest unit in the game because they invalidate anything stationary smaller than a cerb and used well kill cerbs also.
+0 / -0
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Mobile shields are amazing for many reasons other than tanking artillery in a static front line. Given how frustrated everyone is with arty, here is a proposal to try over themed week or something: 1. Every artillery unit has a stockpile of ammunition (same as nukes, we already have the tools in game for that). It spawns from factory with e.g. 10 shells. 2. When a mobile artillery unit (which is not a plasma cannon, arguably, those are not an issue) fires, it uses its stockpile of ammo. 3. Stockpile is replenished at rate of ~20% of max fire rate of that unit (and uses e.g. 1 energy/s or something like that to stockpile) 4. Mobile artillery can not stockpile more than 20? shots. 5. To keep balance all artillery fire rate can be increased by 50%. This way artillery can be substantially more burst-fire focused, while making sustained bombing less of a viable strategy (at least for most problematic units like impaler). For example, a racketeer would be able to easily disarm a unit, but would not be able to keep it disarmed indefinitely. Similarly, impalers would be able to snipe a stinger far quicker, but would not be able to keep bombarding stuff around it as effectively. Thus, players would be forced to think more before deploying tactical artillery.
+2 / -0
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