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After watching this game http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/197093 where blastwings won the game, i got an idea how to fix them. You cant just nerf blastwins cause they op only in small games. If you just nerf them, they will be useless in big games. So you need to nerf them only in small games. So this a solution. Make all units(except striders) need to be unlocked ingame for metal before you can build them. This will look like this.. you plop a fac, and see all units grayed, except 1 raider and aa unit. For shield fac this will be bandit and vandal who is unlock from start, other units will need some metal to be payd before you can build it. For gunship fac unlocked from start should be Banshee and Trident. Unlocking cost for units should be based on their difference in opness between small and big games. So for blastwins unlock should be really high compared to their build cost, maybe 500m to prevent spamming them from start metal. And for the krow unlock should cost much lower then its build cost, cause its really not op in small games. Actually, let treat it as strider and make unlocked from start. So after this blastwings will not ruin opponents from start game in small games, cause you cant spam them from start metal. And in big games they still will be useful, cause 500m for big games is not money. Archer balancing also should have some benefits from this.
+0 / -12
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blastwings are not broken. i disagree. with having intel you will take counter measurements. such as a defender.
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That would not be a flat technology tree, which is a significant part of Zero-K.
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>blastwings are not broken. i disagree. But you must agree, there is some units that op in small games and not op in big games
+2 / -0
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Worst idea ever if i have to be honest
+0 / -0
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Regardless of the veracity of your balance claims this type of tech system is not the way to fix anything. This would:
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Promote team-wide single unit spam (the only type in my opinion).
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Promote assisting of allied factories instead of using your own.
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Add extra rules.
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Add arbitrary rules.
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Be "cheating" in terms of game design. Design knobs which give direct control of high level things are bad for a 'emergent' type game.
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No agreement can be reached with "op in small games vs op in large games".
+4 / -0
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quote:
But you must agree, there is some units that op in small games and not op in big games |
this claim is extremely situational. OPness means a unit is suppreme, no matter what the opponent does. if you use a unit type with a certain strenght and the opponent has a weakness exactly there, you had either a good plan or luck or the other team did not scout. OP units might exist and you can discuss them. specifically. not: "there is some units that op". devs will work on balance then. if you want to speed up the process, then abuse the OPness unit till community either rages or follows your example. this decreases the time for devs to react to it ;)
+0 / -0
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>Promote assisting of allied factories instead of using your own. why its bad?
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and in addition to balancing thing this will bring whole new level of tactics. For example, after this loosing a fac will be really bad, as new fac you build will have all unlocks in default state.
+0 / -3
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Ofcause, this is really gamechanging feature, so it need test. We need test room where all crazy ideas will be tested before implement them in patch
+0 / -4
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Give your commander a guard order on the enemy factory then go make yourself a cup of coffee and come back 5 minutes later to see if you have won or lost and tell me whether you are still 'playing Zero-K'. This is why we added facplop. Coopfac is probably still even viable. It's just hard to get people to cooperate in teamgames. But yeah, no, as the guy who came up with 'flat balance', we won't be doing this. There are a few things, like Nukes, Missiles, and Striders and E-requiring structures which are behind a 'blockade' of some sort and if we did add that kind of thing it would be by putting it in something like the Strider Hub (BTW: This is not the primary purpose of most of these mechanics anyway). Which should give you an impression of what I think about this as a solution for the blastwing.
+0 / -0
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>* No agreement can be reached with "op in small games vs op in large games". ok, then let just fixed unlock cost. Like, the more unit cost the less it need to unlock compared to its price. Like this 100m- unlock is 5x of its cost 500m- unlock is 2.5x of its cost 1000m- unlock is 1x of its cost 5000m- unlock is 0.5x of its cost
+0 / -3
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OP post is neon dribble, but the blastwing IS a gimmicky piece of crap with little application outside of rush cheese that is countered by even the tiniest amount of AA. watching godde, sak etc try and fail to use the unit effectively means the rest of us have little hope.
+5 / -1
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Hey I won quite a few games with Blastwing Cheese! On Ravaged and no other map..... Blastwing is really good against raider packs (costs less than any of them) skirm packs (they can't hit it) windgens, mexes, etc. But in a metagame where Fighters and Defenders exist, it's just not worth making, especially when so much of the Gunship factory relies on the 'Surprise I am gunships!' factor of a giant Banshee ball. Still though, try making gunship factory, 0-2 mexes, 0-3 winds, then assisting your gunship factory to pump blastwings with a factory waypoint directly on his comm. If he hasn't made a defender before the first one arrives, you have a pretty good chance of taking the comm out and this prevents him from making any structures with the AoE blast. So... so... yeah it's a silly cheese unit.
+2 / -0
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its really awful. its damage is mostly random. its success depends variously on stupid targetting behavior, build order rock paper scissors and hoping the shards hit somthing when it dies. The unit can be safely scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up into somthing useful. the only people who will defend the current incarnation are those afflicted with some combination of nostalgia, non-objectivity or mindless conservatism. personally, I would like to see it turned into a proper kind of ambush bomb. that would constitute making it much much slower, higher weight, and with a detonation that actually does somthing with only one of them present. the key then would be deploying them on the map without opponents seeing rather than mindlessly running them into things.
+2 / -0
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quote:
But you must agree, there is some units that op in small games and not op in big games |
  brrolegI agree with this. Bandit was OP in 1vs1 (at least before the recent rebalance) because it kills all the opposition's raiders, causing them to lost alot of metal. The Bandit was not counter-able because its in early game (no scout/no information), so the first factory/unit is always a gamble, and if you lost too much metal then its already too much mistakes.
+1 / -1
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brroleg i say this...blastwings are not op.Since som1 can micro a gnat to take defender dmg and to use 8-7 blastwings to kill the commander, doesnt make them op.If he can micro at least you can micro a defender to manual attack the blastwing cluster.
+1 / -0
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 FIXED!
+6 / -0
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or you can build 3 defenders! :D cause 3 defenders cost 240m, and comslayer blastball cost over 300m +95m gnat (600m if its a battlecom) also scouting! cause well... scouting!! quote:
"Surprise I am gunships!' factor of a giant Banshee ball. |
this needs to be put in the gunship lab description
+2 / -0
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yeah, best defence is just battlecom start
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