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Starcraft II Sucks!

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9 years ago
Skasi


PLrankOrfelius
quote:
GBrankPRO_rANDY http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/RANDY
EErank[ISP]Lauri master
ESrankElTorero lower master
GBrank[Fx]Drone master

I wasn't master, I was only diamond. Same goes for GBrank[Fx]Drone from what I've heard. Not sure about ESrankElTorero. GBrankPRO_rANDY was really master though, at the very least.
+0 / -0
Skasi
Oh ty Lauri, that's not what Forb said then. My keyboard DOES register 2 keypresses at once, otherwise I couldn't write IN UPPERCASE WITHOUT USING CAPSLOCK.

Anyway, my point still stands:
quote:
Oh you have no idea. Give Zerg a try. In addition to having to queue a worker every x seconds (this now takes one more click, yippie!) you now have to inject larva with your queens into every single hatchery every y seconds and order every one of your creep tumors to expand every z seconds.
This issue is not solved.


quote:
but pro starcraft players would own in spring games

I doubt that. Most pro starcraft players would order their Zero-K units to shoot at the ground and try to stutter-step Glaives while building 20 factories.
+1 / -0
9 years ago
quote:
I doubt that. Most pro starcraft players would order their Zero-K units to shoot at the ground and try to stutter-step Glaives while building 20 factories.

Sure because I did tried to set up my peewees in turtle stance when I came to spring from TW.
Once they would learn the power of new interface and economy model as well as diffrent counters they would be as pro as they are in Starcraft.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
I doubt that. Most pro starcraft players would order their Zero-K units to shoot at the ground and try to stutter-step Glaives while building 20 factories.

First two issues are resolved within a minute (at most). Nubtron is kind enough to tell them not to build more facs, so unless they are too arrogant to listen to that, they'll learn that part in the first game, too.
+0 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
quote:
Nubtron

Clippy?
Okay, in that case most pro starcraft players will never be good. :P
+0 / -0

9 years ago
In ZK, you can have random specs talking, drawing dicks around the map and shit.
In SC2, you can get disqualified for saying glhf.
+6 / -0
I am not sure why people say that ZK is a 'macro game' any more than many other RTS? Macro is very important in anything that I would call an RTS. Perhaps people like to call the large scale exponential economy games 'macro games' (think NOTA or SupComm) and lump ZK in the same category due to shared roots.

Macro is very important in Starcraft and you spend a lot of your time actively manage it to keep it ticking over. Perhaps it is considered to be micro oriented because a lot of micro is required for decent effectiveness of many army compositions.

Perhaps ZK is considered a macro game because we have comparatively intelligent units and a powerful UI. Many difficult things in Starcraft are easy in ZK. In Starcraft it is impressive when a pro player executes the kind of split made easy with line move. Kiting Marines with Stalkers can take all your attention. The reasoning would then be that the ZK UI removes all of that micro and so what remains must be a game about macro.

I think that removing this micro has revealed more micro hiding underneath. You cannot just make a battle plan and sit back. Targets will need assigning as they are revealed. Skirmishing units may have to advance or retreat. Most raiding requires you to rapidly decide and implement what you want to kill and whether your raider needs to try to survive. Both players get the powerful UI which allows them to stack layers of complexity on battles which would otherwise be limited to who can keep their Rockos at range most effectively.

The macro:micro clicks ratio is possibly higher in ZK because you tend to constantly be engaged in skirmishes and you do not have to manage each individual action of your economy.

Automation does not aim to remove micromanagement. Broadly I think I have three aims.

1. Reduce the gap between the complexity of a decision and micro required to execute it.


Say you decide that a nanoframe needs to be complete ASAP but you are at a 2x metal stall. I would call this a fairly simple decision, but without priority you would have to pause many of your other constructions to free up the metal income. You could decide that your Bandits should kite any Glaives they encounter so give them an Attack Move order (you also have to choose where they should move). Without kiting on Attack Move you would need to click a lot whenever your Bandits run into Glaives.

In these examples the number of actions required is roughly equal to the number of decisions made. The micro is introduced when you suddenly are required to make many decisions. For example your Bandits could come across a bunch of Glaives guarding a commander. You have to decide whether to keep kiting the Glaives or to run in and kill the commander. You'll have to use the set target command to communicate your decision to attack the commander. Perhaps there are some turrets around, should you target them first? Maybe it is not obvious which side to attack from. Perhaps you decloak a nearby Sniper during the battle, should you switch targets?

On top of these decisions you really have to tell your units exactly where to go because they do not know what you are planning to do from one second to the next. Messing with state toggles that fast is infeasible so we are left with line move as the best UI to communicate decisions at that speed.

Anyone who says ZK lacks micro has not had a good go at 1v1.

2. Make balance at lower skill levels approximate the balance at high levels of skill.


I would like the 'real' balance of ZK to be accessible to many people. By this I mean that the rough shape of interaction between unit types is similar between many levels of play. Obviously it is impossible for units to remain the same over all levels of play but I can at least try.

For example imagine that Bandits could not be told to kite Glaives. This would have little effect at high levels of play but it would drastically change their relationship at the level where people do not have the attention to kite Glaives (this high level of play is far beyond our current highest level). You can imagine examples like this for every bit of automation.

Unit automation exists here to give units reasonable default behaviours. These defaults should correspond to a common way that the unit is used in high level play. This gives lower level players a taste of the real balance and mechanics of the unit without them having to execute complex micromanagement. Sure, they will be beaten by more skilled players who know when to make the default decision and when to execute the alternatives. But at least more players get a taste of how the unit should be used.

Removing bits of automation increases the time investment (in micro training) required before a new player would get to play 'real' ZK. Creating a resiliently balanced game would be even harder than it is now.

3. Let us get away with adding more complicated and nuanced mechanics.


As a designer, automation allows me to ask players to do more things at once. You can have a Rocko/Storm battle running while simultaneously attacking elsewhere with Bandits and managing your expansion. These situations will require attention and management but at least your Rogues will dance about by themselves and the Bandits will not run in and die if they encounter some Glaives. The automation will not implement any great decisions for your units but it at least maintain a holding pattern. It lowers the APM required for this level of play.

The mechanics of slow projectiles, turnrates, acceleration, blocking etc... would make interactions too complex to handle more than one at time for most people. With automation to implement some handling of these interactions they are 'allowed' to exist.


These there points are sort of aspects of the same thing. It is not really a critique of Starcraft. It is my current thoughts on what the automation in ZK does and why it is there.
+9 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
I cbf to read all the comments here, I imagine that they more or less reiterate OP.

And that's why you almost completely miss the point.

quote:
WRT skazi and zerg, apparently you aren't aware of rapid fire injects. Protip, make sure you have a kb that can register 2 keypresses at once, bind "next hatchery" button and "Inject larve" ability to 2 keys.

Put all queens on one hotkey. Every 30 seconds, press queen hotkey and press the 2 keys for the above listed actions. Viola. As zerg I can inject 5 hatcheries in under 2 seconds.

An excellent example of bad design in Starcraft 2 involving pointless micromanagement. Oh, and if you don't agree it's pointless, please show me a (high level) game where NOT using larva injects won that player the game.

quote:

Starcraft is a micro RTS. It is all about the devil being in the details. ZK and other rts games like it are Macro oriented.

Sc2 is also all about counters and individual unit micro. As protoss a badly placed forcefield or missed guardian shield could lose you the game in the early stages. As could losing a single zealot or stalker.

Sc2 is a completely different style of rts.

You don't watch many high level 1vs1 Zero-K games, do you? Otherwise you would know this is a ridiculous statement. If I'm not mistaken, Zero-K is one of the most micromanagement-heavy Spring games.

quote:

I imagine fans of total war would come and say that zk sucks fat donkey nuts. That doesn't make them right. It's just a different experience.

I'm a HUGE fan of Sword of the Stars (aka Total War in space). I love Zero-K too, and a big part of why I prefer it compared to other Spring games is it's focus on micromanagement, variety of units and (relatively) small games.

quote:

If you rank silver in sc2, you are bad. Straight up. You also know nothing about the game. Sc2 is all about knowledge. In order to not suck you need shitloads more experience.

You're contradicting yourself. First you say it's all about the micro (which you get by training, repetition), then you say it's ALL about knowledge. Can't be both. (It also cannot be ALL about counters at the same time as the previous two.)

quote:

The skill threshold bar to play SC2 properly is set much higher than in ZK thus making "silver" players play bad.

Let's check if this statement is valid. According to TeamLiquid's wiki, Bronze + Silver is 8%+28%=36% of the player base :
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues
What elo is in Zero-K the threshold for the worst 36% of players?
(Is there any way to see player elo distribution in Zero-K?)
+0 / -0


9 years ago
quote:
(Is there any way to see player elo distribution in Zero-K?)

I could run some queries on the database eventually, but that's it.
+0 / -0
Actually, I might answer this question myself :
Assuming it's a Gaussian distribution with a mean of 1500 :
Lower 36% cutoff is at, assuming :
- standard deviation of 200 (source : a chess site) : 1428
- standard deviation of 2000/7=286 (source : Wikipedia on Elo in chess) : 1397

Bronze is lower 8% :
- σ=200 : 1219
- σ=286 : 1098
+1 / -0
9 years ago
What's that master/lower master/diamond thing you are talking about? I have never played SC2
+1 / -0
9 years ago
That's I have enough of this. I have officially become mute.
Thanks brain for mixing up the names!
+0 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
[18:07] CredibleORF I have officialy become mute
[18:07] CredibleORF from
[18:07] CredibleORF now
[18:07] CredibleORF on

last post: 18:09:47

you failed
+0 / -1

9 years ago
ESrankElTorero
quote:

What's that master/lower master/diamond thing you are talking about? I have never played SC2

You know, when I give links, I hope that people reading the discussion will at least briefly glance at the linked page...
+0 / -0
Well, this has predictably spun out of control, and waaaay off topic.

The OP was actually not about SC2 being bad, although it did serve to vent my frustration with the experience. It was about the difference between SC2/ZK in popularity and quality being disproportionate, with the thesis that ZK could be vastly more popular if the game was just more visible and accessible to mainstream gamers. It is unclear that anyone (EDIT: except FRrankBlueTemplar) actually read and engaged the main point of the OP.

EDIT: almost 2k views. The internet was made for arguing about which thing is better.
+0 / -0

9 years ago
o/ I did!
quote:

A game’s monetary success is based on four things, ranked in order of importance:
1) The size of the target audience
2) The product’s market visibility
3) The price point of comparable existing products
4) The quality of the game
+1 / -0


9 years ago
Hmm, looking at AUrankAdminGoogleFrog's post, I think I see the biggest fundamental difference in outlook between the TA-based and Craft-based designs:

Craft-based designs make lack of skill fail fast, TA-based designs make lack of skill fail gracefully.

To elaborate, in StarCraft/WarCraft games, any action taken will either work or fail: Units either shoot and hit or don't shoot; they either get built in x time or not at all; they are uncontrolled and do next to nothing, or get controlled and do their jobs. In TA-based games, any action taken will generally work as well as it can: Units shoot when they think they will hit, though the shot may miss; they get built as fast as they can, but almost always at least a little bit at a time; they are uncontrolled and work at 50-80% efficiency, or are controlled and become fully efficient.

As a consequence, StarCraft/WarCraft games have a much more rapid feedback loop for basic actions, as it's pretty much a discrete worked/failed result. However, in TA-based games, that feedback loop is much messier, as one can muddle along and not know they are even messing up the basics. As a result, it's easier to just mess around casually in TA-based games, since the game will make a best effort to handle player desires; while it is easier to understand mid-level basics in StarCraft/WarCraft, since the game will stop you whenever you screw them up.

However, in both cases the failures in player skill do cause them to lose because they failed to keep up with their opponent. It's just usually easier to tell that one is messing up in StarCraft/WarCraft because the game is getting on you to build more farms or mine more minerals when trying to build stuff, but remembering/thinking to expand and bulid more production facilities/push more out of existing ones is a common learning hurdle to both schools of RTS. The only difference in the economy with TA-based games is the removal of the super-basic player vs game element, so everything is a question of one player relative to the other.
+3 / -0
Christ this board won't allow quotes...

Bluetemplar, it is not a contradiction.

Saying that it is all about doing things in the right order at the right times takes both skill AND knowledge, especially in SC2.

Why would I watch any high level zk 1v1? It's roughly as exciting as watching paint dry or grass grow. Yes, I have seen shadow's casts.

The micromanagement is not pointless. It is designed to be high intensity. It is designed to be a micromanagement nightmare. That is specifically what the game is designed for. The fact that you don't get this is why you are bad at it (and that's ok! No one is saying you need to love it.).

SC2 has a HUGE skill gap. Everyone knows this. It is an incredibly difficult game to play well. In order to be good you have to have the mechanical skill, the knowledge of the game counters, the knowledge of how your units work best in which situations, making the right choices at split second timing, etc. There is a reason that the saying "Skill level: Asian" exists. So yeah, in a game like that, of course there is a massive skill gap.

SC2 is designed first and foremost to be a game for esports.


There is plenty of bad design in sc2 in general, but what you list is specifically mechanical in nature and true to the design of the game, making it "good" design. If zerg did not have to do injects, it would steamroll other races in continual waves of units. Without the extra larvae, it cannot make enough units fast enough. Injects are a mechanic to limit growth to the skill of the player.

This is one of the reasons that zerg is my favorite race to play. Very difficult, but extremely rewarding when you do it well.


Rapid Fire Inject:
+0 / -0


9 years ago
The micromanagement is a solitaire skill test, that's the thing people have an issue with. That it is a skill test isn't contested here, just that it isn't a directly opposed skill test, and the directly opposed skill tests (knowing what to invest in and where to focus one's army, primarily) are only really relevant at the highest levels where the solitaire skill tests are no longer a differentiator. The main difference with Zero-K is that what solitaire skill tests that exist are largely irrelevant even at mid-level, which is a draw and also a drawback, as there isn't much to really practice in a low-pressure solo environment.

USrank[Evo]ForbodingAngel: Seriously, my casts, like paint drying? Thanks a lot.
+3 / -0

9 years ago
quote:
Why would I watch any high level zk 1v1? It's roughly as exciting as watching paint dry or grass grow. Yes, I have seen shadow's casts.


I know you're not particularly careful with your choice of words (and expect people to know that facet of yours [or "read it in your voicechat voice"]), but I doubt you realize how many people you just hurt quite deeply.
+0 / -0
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