Battle 954130 detail

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Anir

3 years ago

rovers are just totaly useless

+2 / -0

GoogleFrog

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

I think you were just too greedy and seemed to expect cheaper armies to beat more expensive ones.

Rover sent out an expanding Mason very early on, send their commander in a different direction and, did not make any Lotus.
Rover loses a few Scorchers to chasing Kodachis but by 3:00 have the Kodachi under control and almost have the same economy as Tank (since Tank built a Lotus and only expanded with a commander).
Then instead of getting out some units and stabilising, Rover make two more Masons, putting you far behind on army.
Over the rest of the game Rover misjudges how much more expensive tanks are and attacks into larger armies.
At 4:00 Rover attacks a Tank army that costs 50% more.
At 4:45 Rover attacks a Tank army that costs 69% more.
At 6:00 Rover has a better economy than Tank and is slightly behind on army.
At 6:00 Rover pokes and scares away a Tank army that costs 33% more from diving in to attack Rover expansion.
At 7:00 Rover attacks a Tank army that costs 46% more.
At 8:00 Rover resigns because Tank has a much larger army and Rover threw their army away.

You probably know this, but the retreat advantage was a big part of this game. Armies tend to fight better if the enemy is running towards them rather than if they are running towards the enemy. Your smaller army was enough to scare off the larger army, but not enough to force the larger army to stop floating around your territory.

+1 / -0

Oflameo

3 years ago

It would be nice if that last Ripper change was reverted so rovers can actually do something about heavy raiders post fluid update.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

Oflameo - Rippers? I would have thought dominatrix was the candidate for that role?

Edit: I'm a moron. I read raiders as "assaults" because of the word heavy. Don't do drugs kids.

+0 / -0

Anarchid

3 years ago

Theoretically, Dominatrix should be countered by raiders rather than counter them.

Which last Ripper change do you mean, though?

+0 / -0

Oflameo

3 years ago

With the superfluid update Ripper was buffed. https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/29727?page=7&Search=&User=&grorder=&grdesc=False&grpage=1

quote:
Ripper damage 220 -> 280
Ripper reload time 1.63s -> 1.6s

Ripper got nerfed in

https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/29925?page=3&Search=&User=&grorder=&grdesc=False&grpage=1

quote:

Damage 280 -> 270 (used to be 220)
Reload 1.6 -> 1.7 (used to be 1.63)
Range 300 -> 285
Increased turret turn rate by 75%

Now Rovers have a hard time with raiders.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

Rovers was mono-ripper because it was THAT good on the update before the nerf. Like, really, really good.

+0 / -0

Oflameo

3 years ago

Why isn't mono-Ripper the go to solution to Tank raiders now? Is it that they are so bad that it is easier to juggle Darts, Scorchers, and Fencers?

+0 / -0

katastrophe

3 years ago

usually they are just simply too slow i think...

+0 / -0

[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng

3 years ago

Rovers felt better when the fac was built around borderline game breaking scorcher. Now scorcher is a C pick at best, the fac whomps

+0 / -0

NorthChileanG

3 years ago

Hey, rover IS broken against tank. Look at my win probability first, secondarily look at my weak expansion. Rover player has to micro seriously more than tank player atm, all other things equal.

+3 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

Keep mentioning this to Randy when he roves and doesn't get success: They don't scale into late game like other factories at all. Partially due to dominatrix issues, lots of weak high-range units, out-classed assault units and no "boss" unit.

Sidenote: Observe the difference between thug and ravager in terms of assault stats (durability to cost).

Ravager 250 metal, thug 175.
Ravager 1850 HP, thug 960 + 1250 shield (2210 total)

Yes, the ravager has more speed and DPS, but that's more the territory of raider units and as such, it's fair to say that rover fall somewhat short in the assault department too - a key part of mid-lategame.

It wouldn't take a great deal to shift them back into a meta viable state though. Just as we learned with Ripper, you can't go too far over-board.

+0 / -0

Godde

3 years ago

I could play Rovers just to prove you wrong but then I would have to stop spamming Daggers...

+2 / -0

Anarchid

3 years ago

quote:
I could play Rovers just to prove you wrong but then I would have to stop spamming Daggers...

"Rover works into midgame if provided with a 300 elo lead" :P

+1 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

Godde Please do prove it. In the past you might have been the gold standard icon of meta deviation but you've had your ass kicked far too much lately for narcissistic bluffing to hold any weight on it's own.

Edit - Things I would love to see proven:

Rovers scale into the lategame effectively.
Rovers don't have a disadvantage against shieldbots.
Rovers don't have an uphill micro battle against tanks.

Criteria are that these are played with top 10 players, higher the better.

And yes, I appreciate how very unlikely these stars are to actually align. But you did offer!

+0 / -0

Godde

3 years ago

I have to agree that Rovers doesn't scale into the lategame.
If you face a Dante for example, you just have to transition into something else or hope that you can get the Dante when it is low on HP after attacking your defenses for example.

You can see rANDY win with a Rover start against shieldbots in this game

B954373 2 on Banana Republic v1.0.1.
He depends a lot on the Thunderbird advantage that Rovers can abuse because they are faster than the shieldball.
With the Thunderbird advantage, you can drain the shieldball, go in and kill some units and then retreat if you can't finish it off.
I think it is fair that a fast factory like Rovers have to use their mobility to gain an advantage against a slow factory like shieldbots.
Ravagers are a good threat against small to medium shieldballs. They outmaneuver the shield ball and raid and then turn back and overwhelm the shield ball once it is committed inside your territory.

You can see rANDY beating tanks here

B954606 2 on Mercurial v1.1 and losing with tanks against Rovers here:

B954623 2 on Eye of Horus v13
Again, Rovers have to depend on their mobility advantage to win against tanks I'd say.
Minotaur is a heavier version of the Ravager and Ogre is a heavier version of the Ripper and the Tank variants both beat their equivalents in the Rover factory. So the Rover player has to compete in another axis than just facing off against Minotaurs and Ogres.
Scorchers still seem to be decent against Kodachis and they scale better against defences and heavy units aswell.
Dart can overwhelm Blitz and act as a force multiplier against small numbers of Minotaurs and lone Ogres.
Dominatrix can almost dominate the whole tank factory alone but it balances on a knifes depending on it if has critical mass or not.

+2 / -0

[GBC]1v0ry_k1ng

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

For a fac that depends on its mobility advantage, it seems debatable what mobility advantage it has against tanks.

Kodachi/Panther are just as fast as scorcher/ravager, and Welders negate the value of dart raiding

+0 / -0

Manu12

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

Ummm are you guys sure that rovers arent actually better than tanks right now?

Me vs randy

B954849 2 on Red Comet v1.3

B954856 2 on Red Comet v1.3

+2 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

Thanks for spending a bit of time responding on that goading of the Godde.

quote:
I have to agree that Rovers doesn't scale into the lategame.

Fair enough. Not a major point of contention really.

quote:
You can see rANDY win with a Rover start against shieldbots in this game Multiplayer B954373 2 on Banana Republic v1.0.1.

Right, but this game was lost more because

izirayd derped and instead of denying

PRO_rANDY's use of thunderbird with the usual 2 felons, he decided to mirror and try to thunderbird the rovers - an insane move. Any SB player playing to win isn't going to fuck around like that. So that replay is not really a typical example of what happens. The only units that CAN chase a ball from rovers (dart, scorcher, ravager) all still happen to get shut down by JUST ONE outlaw among the thugs who can block all of the more costly ravager's damage anyway. The SB needs to make a lot of mistakes to lose.

quote:
You can see rANDY beating tanks here Multiplayer B954606 2 on Mercurial v1.1

Interesting -

Kingstad did have an initial better start but I think he got too invested in the aggression. His micro and eco then slowly got worse than

PRO_rANDY's but there were 2 other factors worth mentioning here. He keeps sending his units uphill into Randy's unit stream chokepoint. That alone is a strategical flaw, now a fac RPS one. The second point is a concession in Tank's favour: Ogre seems to be underperforming just slightly. It's exactly double the cost of ripper, but statistically it's worse. It doesn't have 2x the HP. Not sure about speed or DPS. Ogre could definitely get a small buff and still be fine.

quote:
and losing with tanks against Rovers here: Multiplayer B954623 2 on Eye of Horus v13

This one's really hard to judge on a purely Tanks vs Rovers merit to decide the battle because by the end of the game, it's 5vs4 factory types. During the kodachi phase, randy does really well except for 1 key fact: He does it all in King's territory and provides a really nice early metal boost to him.

Then,

Kingstad establishes an early economical advantage via energy and makes the right call against Randy's way-too-early mino spam (where kodachis would have been way more effective), made worse by timing of the switch to cloaks. I'd say that chokepoints definitely work against tanks and to the favour of rovers and maybe we're seeing terrain preference of each fac shining through a little. I'd like to see some red comet / alien desert and see if they go the same.

I guess what I'm saying is I need to see more, but more to the point, I want to see it from you because I was ultimately calling you out on your boast.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

quote:
Manu vs Randy
Multiplayer B954849 2 on Red Comet v1.3

Multiplayer B954856 2 on Red Comet v1.3

Randy's loss was mostly down to early greed snowball, but Manu's loss... That I can't quite explain. Ogre really did seem underwhelming. Maybe the downgrades to Kodachi finally are at a point where I can give up on the hate on it.

+0 / -0

Page of 2 (23 records)

Title:	[A] Small Teams All Welcome
Host:	Nobody
Game version:	Zero-K v1.8.9.0
Engine version:	104.0.1-1544-ge1f249f
Battle ID:	954130
Started:	3 years ago
Duration:	8 minutes
Players:	2
Bots:	False
Mission:	False
Rating:	Casual