Battle 975729 detail

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izirayd

3 years ago

Can't do anything against gs

+0 / -1

GoogleFrog

3 years ago

What have you tried so far? I wouldn't expect completely defensive Bolas spam to work as you'll just lose on economy. Dagger spam seems like it could defend itself well enough to force some turrets. The map does seem designed to make gunships as good as possible. The mex clusters are just spread enough to be difficult to cover with Razor and land movement is quite constrained.

That said, my view at the moment is 1v1 would be better if gunships were practically unploppable. They constrain the types of maps that can exist, are much better against some factories than others, and I don't think 'spam Locust with naked Wasp' is as interesting as land openings. Maybe Wasp needs to be mega Owled.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

I disagree that he could do nothing. Mechadansonia was altered from Adansonia to give other factories a little bit more of a chance vs Gunship starts, although it's still difficult. In particular, the bot factories have an easier time because of their dedicated staircase access.

There was a point in the middle of the game where randy's 2 wasps were absolutely pumping metal into fortifying that base platform on izi's side. During this time, izi managed to have a really large force which, although too slow to respond to wasp movement, would have been able to make it all the way into randy's base, cut the wasps off, and clean the fuck on up. That was his moment. But he was certainly not to know this, sitting in his base waiting.

Mega owlification may be a touch drastic. Perhaps a trial compromise nerf would open things up without being too restrictive. Maybe a 30 cost increase and -15% BP alteration would suffice. Maybe locusts losing an elmo or too, but nothing eyebrow raising. The reason I say this is because when I've lost to randy GS start, it has felt like it was unfair, but at the same time, victory was never completely off the cards, it was just really, really hard to grasp.

+0 / -0

PRO_rANDY

3 years ago

I'd guess 80% of my games the last few months with Izi he has complained about the factories during or after the game. Yesterday in our two games it was my rogues vs hovers and gs vs hovers. Izi has complained about my koda bring op vs his shield bots on alien desert, then a week later complained how tank has no counter to rogues when we played the opposite factory matchup on the same map. It gets tiresome to hear how all your wins are down to factories and never your gameplay (or bugs if against Godde).

+7 / -0

Godde

3 years ago

But that is my philosophy. I never lose because you play well. I only lose because I play bad. And when I don't play bad, I lose because of bugs.
Hate the game not the player, you know.

+1 / -1

Godde

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

On a similar note. I never lose because of bad balance, I only lose because I choose a suboptimal strategy.

+0 / -0

Anarchid

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

You don't lose because of bugs, you lose because you abuse them wrong.

quote:
Maybe a 30 cost increase and -15% BP alteration would suffice

This seems sufficiently drastic to me.

+1 / -0

Godde

3 years ago

Abuse is wrong therefore abusing bugs is wrong.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

Unless it's mandatory Archer abuse.

+1 / -0

Anarchid

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

Unless it is mandatory. (either to not lose the game, or for corrective accelerationism)

+1 / -0

Godde

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

quote:
Unless it's mandatory Archer abuse.

I don't think Archer is bugged in any way.
Spam is not abuse.
You can argue that Archer is OP on water maps and breaks balance design on many water maps.
However, I'm still not convinced Archer is OP on land maps.

+1 / -0

Bakuhatsu

3 years ago

One potential lever to hit Archer with on water maps is the uw regen speed. I had it relatively high for my proposal design which was costlier and had 30 less dps so that it would do a bit better on water maps (in 3 duck or so engagements it's worth one duck shot or so). The current version may not need this level of regeneration and could get the scallop treatment where uw regen is much more limited.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

Consider that on water maps, it's not who inflicts the most damage in a fight of Archers, it's who scores the higher killcount that matters. Because the heal rate may aswell be instant.

+0 / -0

GoogleFrog

3 years ago

Dregs I'm not talking about whether or not

izirayd could do anything, I'm talking about whether GS start should even be supported. If GS shouldn't be startable then Wasp seems like a good target for a nerf. It doesn't even necessarily have to be owled, just given abilities that aren't good at the start of the game.

I think mainstream 1v1 GS start may be bad for 1v1 because:

As maps become less navigable, the speed of land factories that can navigate the terrain reduces (eg Rover -> Shield -> Spider). However, GS is the fastest factory and doesn't care about terrain. This sets up a situation where the fastest factory can face the slowest factories.
GS start makes the game harder. It requires particular counters and, if countered, then it is likely to be followed up by a land switch fairly quickly.
GS start applies pressure to push the AA units towards the average. Currently factories have dedicated and flex AA with different strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes they are better against either bombers or gunships. If GS start is standard then all factories will need cheap accessible AA or flex AA that beats light gunships.

quote:
I'd guess 80% of my games the last few months with Izi he has complained about the factories during or after the game. Yesterday in our two games it was my rogues vs hovers and gs vs hovers. Izi has complained about my koda bring op vs his shield bots on alien desert, then a week later complained how tank has no counter to rogues when we played the opposite factory matchup on the same map. It gets tiresome to hear how all your wins are down to factories and never your gameplay (or bugs if against Godde).

For sure, it's just that a broken watch is right twice a day.

+0 / -0

Oflameo

3 years ago

Is there a factory that doesn't have cheap accessible AA or flex AA that beats light gunships?

+0 / -0

Godde

3 years ago

Well I say spider is the worst factory against gunships but you have already read this thread so I guess you agree. http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/32160

+0 / -0

Senaven

3 years ago

izirayd seems have exceptional skill find most bad combinations with starting factory.
But at least in after one game he complained about buoy vs scalpels when he won with them. So he not always complain because loose game.

+0 / -0

PRO_Dregs

3 years ago

Ah minor misunderstanding, my initial post wasn't disagreeing with you

GoogleFrog, it was disagreeing with izi's notion that he could do nothing. On the contrary, I'm totally on board with your reasoning re: gunships.

+0 / -0

Oflameo

3 years ago

I agree, but it turns out that Venoms can hit Locusts and Gnats.

+0 / -0

Godde

3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)

As I said in the thread, Venom only works in defense as a supplement to stationary turrets or the slower Redback. It still leaves the gunship player free to roam the map and expand.

+0 / -0

Page of 2 (24 records)

Title:	MM 1356: 1v1, Rank Singularity
Host:	Nobody
Game version:	Zero-K v1.8.10.0
Engine version:	104.0.1-1544-ge1f249f
Battle ID:	975729
Started:	3 years ago
Duration:	9 minutes
Players:	2
Bots:	False
Mission:	False
Rating:	Competitive