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Worst units visual design

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+0 / -0
You've said what you came here to say @SirCockNballs. Your feedback is appreciated, but as this thread goes on you don't seem to be providing any more useful details about your feedback and seem to be here just to pick a fight. (Openly saying that you prioritize attracting attention over showing respect pretty much gives this away...)

We are not really in the business of providing a forum for somebody who (according to their own statements) doesn't actually play or want to play Zero-K to start arguments so I suggest you either find some other more productive conversation to have or move along.
+0 / -0
Every opinion must be able to hold criticism and be defensible. But i hear you.
In hope, that my words have impact, im leaving. Farewell friends.
+0 / -0


3 years ago
Your statement about a lack of overarching design is not wrong.

However, the message is undercut by your poor choice of username, and lack of solution put forth. SirChoosingBeggar might be a more appropriate username. Also, to be clear: this issue is not new -- it's been kicked around since ZK's inception.

The work that goes into even a single unit addition is not insignificant. The engine is a bit archaic -- there are a few rather steep barriers to entry that also do not help. Lack of common model formats and animations primarily. Point is, creating a new model/unit from scratch takes a considerable amount of time and effort from a skilled individual.

Now, take that amount of work for a single unit, and increase it by 100fold -- that is the level of commitment needed for an artistic director. Even if they didn't model units themselves, the coordination, review, and communication with those who did is an immense undertaking alone. You have mentioned that you don't have the skills for it -- well not many do, and unless someone wants to volunteer this issue will continue to persist.

If you really want to help,
1.) Don't make pointless forum threads with a troll username
2.) Spend the time to earn the skills or find and convince those who do to create concept art, models, etc.
3.) ???
4.) Profit! better game visuals.
+3 / -0


3 years ago
its not news that our models are a hash of different styles. ZK began as a fork mod to another fork mod. Like most mods, it has to make do with what volunteers produce.

I'm certain that puts off a lot of people, not much that can be done about it, it is what it is. It's probably not going to change.
+1 / -0
3 years ago
If you believe low poly design is a deterrent to RTS players you've severely misread the community here.
+1 / -0
3 years ago
Is there a guide to making models beyond the one that exists for the spring engine? I might have a go at it. I have a little experience with 3d modeling and animating, but no experience with doing it for spring.
+0 / -0


3 years ago
The models are relatively easy -- there is a program to convert to s30, or you can save as .dae I believe.

Animations are a bit of a pain. It's been a while but they're scripted manually by moving individual pieces of the model -- so make sure any items you want animated are separate objects within the model. If you open the game files there should be plenty of examples. Lua is nicer than bos/cob -- I recall a relatively simple one is the advanced radar script -- should get you started at least. Its not that hard, but time intensive and requires tweaking -- but I guess thats not any different from any other animation system either, you just have to be comfortable with text.


Ultimately however, the OP's point is the lack of any consistent visual language to the models. I just lined up all the units (excluding air/sea/turrets, etc.) to see how bad it really is...

amph, vehicles, tanks seem to be internally consistent for the most part
cloaky, hover, spiders are halfway there
shield, jump, and striders are all over the place

-- not to mention that between facs there are some big differences as well, as the primary contributors are typically different people with different styles, and units have changed quite a bit over time.

In addition to the models, the weapon effects are also unique to every unit. For the most part every single weapon is entirely unique to that unit -- which certainly doesn't help create a cohesive style, although it does help uniquely identify units on the battlefield, and maintain variety, so not completely without its merits.

Identifying the issues is easy -- creating the models and VFX requires effort (which is always welcome), but before that can even properly begin in earnest, in order to have any kind of cohesive visual style -- some guidelines must be designed, publicized, and followed. We could start putting styles guides on the wiki, but text alone isn't going to cut it. Concept art for generalized themes and factory-specific styles would be much more useful for contributors to follow. Then again, there are lots of models (several of my own, included) that would benefit from a facelift regardless of any style guide, as they are plain ugly and bad.
+0 / -0
Well. Even if he has left I can provide some advice for the rest of you. It is as follows:

Do not engage with people popping in to criticise visuals until they post screenshots



Say "Thanks for the feedback, post screenshots to be more specific". I've had discusses that ended with screenshots only to discover that the critisim was based on a graphics card that was broken or outdated. That is the first reason to request screenshots. The second is that 'visual design' can mean so many things, and it is so easy to narrow down with a picture pointing at what they're talking about. Thirdly, posting a screenshot is a barrier of entry for the amount of effort required for any further discussion.

For all we know RUrankSirCB could have spectated an old map with terrible sun settings and a graphics card from 2010.

Maybe he even spectated a game of chickens.

This isn't to say that people have to put more effort in for their feedback to be valid. You can't argue away how someone feels. I think it is pretty clear that RUrankSirCB does not like the graphics of whatever form of ZK he saw. It is far less clear that talking to RUrankSirCB about it will be fruitful. Most people will often only be willing to put the effort in to communicate "I think a thing is bad in this general area", essentially being a single data point, rather than to invest in the communication required to provide fine details.

There is a lot of literature on how end users are good at knowing how they feel, but generally terrible at knowing why they feel that way or at suggesting solutions. Learning specifics would be useful, but is often infeasible.

To talk to the rest of the thread.
  • You can't "talk away" feedback by drawing a budget comparison. The history of Zero-K isn't relevant to people looking to play a game, except so far as it affects price and the direction of future development.
  • I don't think we need a lot of lore to have good visual design.
  • "If only i could. Im not an artist." <- You can become an artist.
  • RUrankSirCB is right about survivor bias and the relatively high importance of visuals for attracting players. He is not necessarily right about his implicit assertion that what he brings up is by far the most important thing.

quote:
low poly design

I don't think this term is being applied correctly anywhere in this thread.

quote:
artistic director

Having an artistic director would be good. Nobody has been interested in putting enough time in to do it.

In lieu of anyone running the modelling effort, and the extremely low output in later years, we've had to settle with mostly maintaining a visual theme within factories.

quote:
Animations are a bit of a pain.

Animation is not a problem because I make animations. Just provide reasonable piece hierarchies for the model and have an idea of how it could potentially animate (to avoid me trying to animate units that can barely physically walk).

quote:
In addition to the models, the weapon effects are also unique to every unit.

I'm fairly certain this is incorrect.

In terms of what I think should be done:
  • BAR has redone the chicken textures and shaders. Apply them to ZK.
  • I think most of the models look good enough.
  • I think maybe 80% of the units and 50% of the structures look completely fine.
  • The lowest hanging fruit for models would be to remodel the outliers to fit within their class. Eg Sling doesn't fit cloakbots (neither does Phantom, but it is less bad and always cloaked anyway). The turrets, jumpbots, ships, and factory structures are particularly inconsistent classes.
  • Visual effects and shaders are probably much more important than models at this point. Improving CEGS may be the most accessible and lowest hanging fruit in the area of visuals (it's just parameter editing).

Personally I put more weight on being able to tell units apart and on being able to see their state (eg which direction they are firing) than quality or consistency.
+9 / -0
Firepluk
3 years ago
I actually like how zk looks in it's a bit archaic and non uniformely stilistic way - like a real life robots assembled across centuries -could- look...
Think about it, if technologies came to this level we'd probably not have entire armies styled in one sleek design
+4 / -0
If player can't play game because of 'bad graphics' then i suspect that this player isn't serious player. Graphics isnt most important aspect of game. It depend how deep is player mind. I have played dos games which is far greater then many other newest version.


quote:
Not unique. Wargame:RD has a 10x10 battles with highest scale and "controlled" units count. And not lesser tactical deepnes. (Good night, sweet prince).


Only problem that this game cost 30 euro while ZK is free.
+0 / -0

3 years ago
quote:
I actually like how zk looks in it's a bit archaic and non uniformely stilistic way


I also like old maps. I don't like these new graphics improvements on map because they really hurt eye with all these uber detail and colour. I even play on lowest setting because i doesn't hurt my eyes from all these specefects.
+0 / -0
quote:
If player can't play game because of 'bad graphics' then i suspect that this player isn't serious player.


Nah, every one of my real life friends I talked into giving the game a go over the years bounced right off ZK because of the visuals. Remember that we are an unusual demographic... the majority of gamers play the latest big commercial game, which have a huge focus on visuals and polish ("immersion").
+2 / -0
That's funny, I actually had a similar conversation with a friend who was running zk in a vm, since he didn't trust the launcher. It turned out nothing of the rendering worked and he never looked at a screenshot to realize that it's all wrong. We only found out when he watched me play zk on my laptop: he asked me what game I was playing. He didn't even want to believe me that was ZK after what he had seen.
+3 / -0

3 years ago
quote:
Nah, every one of my real life friends I talked into giving the game a go over the years bounced right off ZK because of the visuals. Remember that we are an unusual demographic... the majority of gamers play the latest big commercial game, which have a huge focus on visuals and polish ("immersion").



I know that ZK have outdated graphics but i play it because i like game by itself. I do not play game just because graphics. I play because i like game. I bought great shiny uber graphic Doom eternal but i can't play it because game by itself isn't interesting. Its less interesting even then Original DOOM because too much things added in it and it lost DOOM true spirit. My friend also cried that graphics is bad and in same time he is playing Dota2 but Dota2 graphics also btw is at best medium and still many plays this game.
RTS already is dying as genre.
+1 / -0
3 years ago
When I brought up lore I didn't mean detailed lore, more along the lines of "what is the philosophy and technology of the people who designed these robots, what are the technological limitations, etc". When you have answers to those questions you will naturally embue certain patterns in your unit designs.
+0 / -0
3 years ago
quote:
RTS already is dying as genre.
Citation needed. If ZK, a free RTS without much advertisement, keeps rather constant in the last years (source: https://steamdb.info/app/334920/graphs/) and other games seem to even increase (source, not an expert here just a bit of search: https://www.rankedftw.com/stats/population/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&sy=c&sx=a), don't think that statement should be used without further explanations.
+3 / -0
3 years ago
"RTS is dead" is one of many meaningless "genre X is dead" memes that float around in the gamespace.

With the rise of indie games, all genres are less dead than ever thanks to the work of myriad passionate small companies. RTS has been more dead in the past than it is now.
+1 / -0


3 years ago
quote:
RTS already is dying as genre.



quote:
If player can't play game because of 'bad graphics' then i suspect that this player isn't serious player.

ok? For a healthy and thriving community you also need casual players. Tourists that may stop by once or twice, but may help spread the knowledge of its existence to others who may become serious players.

quote:
Animation is not a problem because I make animations. Just provide reasonable piece hierarchies for the model and have an idea of how it could potentially animate (to avoid me trying to animate units that can barely physically walk).

If modellers know "how it could potentially animate" they can probably make their own as well, the tricky part is for newcomers to gain that specific knowledge. I can make animations too -- they aren't that bad all things considered but it may not be obvious to people not already familiar with Spring's quirks and limitations. It's been a while, maybe there have been some new tutorials I'm not aware of?

quote:
In addition to the models, the weapon effects are also unique to every unit.

There might be a couple exceptions, but by and large there's very little overlap between weapons. Line up all the units and see for yourself. How many other units have Rogue's rocket? Dominatrix designator? Pyro's pyrokinetics? Plasma balls are the most common -- but there are huge differences between Thug / Crabe / Cyclops / Tremor / etc. They may look the same in flight but have wildly different effects -- which is also not super great in itself. Is plasma:
- point damage or splash?
- Huge damage or rubber bullets?
- ground deforming or has no effect?

Overall I'm not saying unique weapons are bad -- they just don't contribute to a cohesive style and design as was suggested by OP. And there aren't really any styles currently that can be globally applied (more than just a couple individual units).

Felon lightning being purple is particularly confusing -- purple means slow? (nope) lightning means stun/disable? (nope). It breaks the rules for two themes that absolutely have the potential for a clear, specific meaning.
+2 / -0
3 years ago
quote:
Not unique. Wargame:RD has a 10x10 battles with highest scale and "controlled" units count. And not lesser tactical deepnes. (Good night, sweet prince).

It is true that W:RD is another exception - and it looks much, much smoother than ZK (ignoring art direction, given the historical setting), especially on effects. However it's one of the most kneecapped UI I've ever seen, even without coming from something as refined as ZK on that regard. In fact, it's so hideously bad that the "normal way" of playing is team games with each player focusing on a lane, because trying to actually manage a battlefield is a fool's errand.
I also disagree with the tactical (or even strategic) depth, though it does have more operational (logistics) depth. Tactics-wise, it mostly has immense complexity due to countless unit classes, variations and stuff like directional armor.

But for all its shortcomings, visuals-wise, and even sound-wise, it is indeed a great example of what can be achieved.

Not that I have solutions for improving things, apart from keeping an eye on what BAR is doing and reusing it if possible, when they're ready with it.
+0 / -0
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