Are Funnelwebs viable outside FFA?

Since the Funnelweb nerfs (some of the most drastic seen to a unit) I haven't seen them in 1v1 or used to any real effect in team games.

I don't feel they're worth making any more outside FFA. The shield is a lot worse than it's cost in Aspis and the regen delay and lack of linking really hurts it. It's fragile and its buildpower is that of 1000 metal worth of Weavers.
It's only useful when resources are plentiful and APM is not (e.g. late game FFA) or as a way of blocking Shockley attacks on antinukes and superweapons.

What do people think? Is it time to change Funnelweb to use another design instead of it just being a missile silo counter?

At the minimum it is a viable counter to Shockley and Eos in clusterpot superweapon scenarios e.g. B1131522 17 on Absolution 2

I build them late game in the big team games to defend superweapons. It is the only way to stop shockley.

Shockley needs drastic change imo. Funnelweb shenanigans aside, it's quite unreliable and hard for new players to use as shockley and eos both have different trajectories/timings. Missile silo creates a large skill gap in large teams and FFA, because shockley and eos mechanics take practice. There are some weird interactions with detriment. And then there's antinuke... Seems weird to have funnelweb as the only possible guard against a missile silo in FFA.

Suggestion: Make shockley have a much larger area of effect (possibly making it a cluster emp bomb) but much lower damage. This would increase its versatility whilst removing some of the more bs strats.

quote: I see Funnelweb in team games.

As doing something useful other than acting as a missile silo defence?


Because if I pick a game like this one (picked because it's on the front page): https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1138793
I see a 4000 metal cost Funnelweb (the price of a singu that would have paid for itself in overdrive in 4 minutes), in its 10 minutes of existence, reclaim around 2000 metal that was already being reclaimed by multiple caretakers and constructors, move forwards a bit against a retreating enemy and then die when it discovered it had advanced too far and was too slow to retreat.
And looking at things objectively I can't see much more it could have done of use, it's just not an efficient unit for any of the things that needed doing in that battle.

That 4000 metal would have been better spent on pretty much ANYTHING ELSE (singu, dante, scorp, merlin, half a trinity, most of a bertha, 60 glaives, 5 Minotaurs...).
I feel Funnelwebs are giant noob traps in most non-FFA circumstances atm.

quote: As doing something useful other than acting as a missile silo defence?

I feel like the missile interception is so powerful an ability that if you completely yank out the buildpower from the current state of Funnelweb, it will still be built in FFA for the antimissile role, and in teams for antinuke defense. I weakly suspect that you could even rip out every one of its legs and turn it into a building, and it would still be built for antimissile job.

On further thought, i would say that merely having that ability will distort any design that has it. I think that a funnelweb with an assault shield thus has several ways to exist (barring solutions like "remove the shield").

1) Accept being distorted by the missile interception role. This is the current state. This also means that the unit will not be very strong at any other role, unfortunately.

2) Try to minimize the missile interception role while keeping the antimissile shield. I think this requires massive nudges equivalent in magnitude to turning the unit into a Detriment with a shield bolted on top.

3) Configure the assault shield to be unable to intercept tactical missiles in some way. Examples could be an arc shield, or a low-thickness high-regen shield.

quote: I see a 4000 metal cost Funnelweb (the price of a singu that would have paid for itself in overdrive in 4 minutes), in its 10 minutes of existence, reclaim around 2000 metal that was already being reclaimed by multiple caretakers and constructors, move forwards a bit against a retreating enemy and then die when it discovered it had advanced too far and was too slow to retreat.

Correct, using the unique missile defense unit for reclaiming like every other constructor is a mistake equivalent to using the unique anti-heavy ambush unit to kill mainly raiders. It does not however follow that the 2500 metal antiheavy unit is a noob trap.

(Wait till someone tries to build the 3000 metal anti-nuke system to stop regular artillery...)

Anarchid: Thing is, there are very few things that will be vulnerable to a missile silo that are worth 4k to defend.
It's cheaper to build extra anti-nukes than defend one with a funnel...
The only things more expensive than Funnels are Berthas (barely), superweapons and Trinities. Possibly a Singu if it's next to a bunch of expensive stuff...
And in practice these things are normally out of range of a silo, which is near the front happily killing Cerebrus, Artemis, Tremors and Merlins (and a single regular shield is often enough to make this cost inefficient)... Or launching fire at your caretakers in 1v1. Or Shockleying your army and antis (with the Funnelweb shield blocking a single 600 metal Shockley for 4k not making much of a difference).

Anir: If you want to defend your army use Aspis. Far more cost effective, less vulnerable to many things (much harder to arti-down or just walk under) and can actually keep up with your army, unlike a modern Funnelweb.

I don't know if this has been suggested before, but what if the size of Funnelweb's shield was variable -- controlled by a toggle to say three different diameters, with the largest being the current one? This might allow it to fulfill the assault role, as it is very hard to position correctly and safely for that currently.

quote: I don't know if this has been suggested before, but what if the size of Funnelweb's shield was variable -- controlled by a toggle to say three different diameters, with the largest being the current one?

Sounds ok but potentially quite fiddly. Maybe that could even include a setting which makes the shield very small so that it is easier to recharge.

quote: Maybe that could even include a setting which makes the shield very small so that it is easier to recharge.

Last I brought up the variable changing shields thing in #zkdev the consensus was that a compact durable BP source was a bad thing.

I'm thinking Anarchid's idea of a triggerable shield may be the best way to make it a real unit again (I'm assuming that the tac missile defence was why it got those brutal nerfs).