starlight

Over at https://zero-k.info/Forum/Post/262725#262725 I (we?) was encouraged to take this to a new thread.

I dislike starlight and I think I'm not the only one. Its annoyingly precise and drama-free as it casually melts big awesome (helpless) superunits that would love to walk over and kill it, if only they could make the journey. Opinions no doubt differ, but I prefer the zenith and IMO it is functionally 90% overlap with starlight anyway.

So imagine if you will, starlight stops being a "superweapon" as you know it. It ends up somewhere between bertha and zenith on the price scale, probably at the low end of that. Also functionally it ends up closer to bertha. But it operates entirely differently. It is a big spotlight that sees all, and lovingly lights it on fire, just a bit. This burning love reveals cloaked units pretty effectively, and does a good bit of damage to huge targets like shields, but isn't going to do much to most things. Not quickly anyway.

Also it would be usually sub-optimal to point the spotlight at the same thing for a long time. Its great use is in scouting, revealing, and applying pressure. Your army is expected to do the real work. It makes the path safer for your paladin, it shows where that pesky lance ball is, it makes the snipers unsafe, it lays bare the impaler spam so you can pursue them, it shows your air player where the AA is lurking, it gives your arty an edge. It could maybe drive away spammy arty units from open ground. Also it can pressure the enemy shieldball just as you attack it, aided by perfect vision, but its not going to be another zenith coming down like a ton of bricks. (Because you should get out there and fight.)

There could perhaps be a D-attack mode with more burn, and a loss of vision.

This got a bit of support from LobHunter and skepticism from Tarkin, I'd be pleased to see more.

I agree Starlight is OP and is a "I win" button.

On the other hand it costs a ton and a game has to end sooner or later.

Yeah, you might be right about the fun. However do you suppose if it has the same starlight limitation with crawling the target area around, that it leaves open the roles of existing units? It would take time to go look here and look there, and time is precious, and also the enemy knows what you are looking at. Because its on fire. Not a subtle tool.

I'd be willing to substitute it for a precision lightning blast on 30s cooldown.

First, I kinda like the idea of orbital weapon, for the epic lulz if nothing else.

Given the motto of ZK (one unit, one role), starlight should do one or the other thing. Either it is an intelligence asset (i.e. see anything on the map), or it is an inferno-lighter anywhere on the map.

If it is a direct damage weapon (like it is now, and like zenith is), then it will be neither stronger nor weaker than zenith. On most maps zenith already has effectively global reach, and can 1-shot just about anything of value. So switching meteor strike for damage over time does not really change much in terms of overall capability, but due to slow damage over time the starlight can be far more counterable (and, thus, cheaper to get).

To make the thing somewhat less useful as direct mex denial thing, the beam steering speed can be reduced even more than it is now, thus making it REALLY slow. So while you could, in theory, eat enemy mexes with it, it would not be an efficient thing to do. Even singu can be, in principle, taken apart under shields and rebuilt elsewhere if it gets targeted (so it does not go kaboom).

However, I'd argue that the more interesting role would be as area denial weapon (to burn out enemy arty spam in front of advancing army, or to deny flea coverage to enemy striders). It does not need a very high dps in this case (5 would be enough), just a very large AOE (about the same spot as inferno, maybe a bit bigger).

As for all-seeing-eye role I tend to agree with Anarchid that revealing more info is not what makes RTS fun.

One radical redesign concept that could be fun is to have an "orbital insertion" weapon which can deploy a bunch of assault units deep into enemy territory (but not with pinpoint accuracy). Kinda like overcharged version of the lobster. So you build the thing, roll a few tanks next to it, and once it is charged up it can lob them very far into enemy base. Or maybe you fancy lobbing something more fun like a dante or a few krows. Either way, giving the ability to deploy conventional units behind the artillery lines would be interesting IMO.

quote: However, I'd argue that the more interesting role would be as area denial weapon (to burn out enemy arty spam in front of advancing army, or to deny flea coverage to enemy striders). It does not need a very high dps in this case (5 would be enough), just a very large AOE (about the same spot as inferno, maybe a bit bigger).

This would be a nice improvement over the current state, certainly. Adjust the damage/range/area to find appropriate balance, set the price at about 10k metal. It will get built, and used, before things escalate to zenith.

I did not think of the implications of using it to target your own detri to keep ulti at bay... However, 10k in fleas achieve the same (and better) result, and do not damage the detri in the process.

I am all for nerfing starlight, as well as cut the damage and HP of all towers except llt and picket in half.

I roll my eyes as I watch people post high cost towers are weak as I watch a SL protected by a deso, and the deso kills ENDLESS waves of units trying to rush the SL.

That, or take all the large area shields out of the game.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, how do you want a match to end? You can either have foritications that force literal spam of artil to break with a super that just breathes it all out of existance, or you can have units to control and static defenses to delay (but not stop).

If you have static defeneses to full stop and no super, in a game in which resources are infinite, you have infinite lasting matches.

That won't be true in 1v1, but it will in lob pot when no single player has the income to push through extreme porc.

If anything, I am for more game enders.

quote: I am tempted to try modding this behavior in to play with. The visual reveal of sparrow is probably a useful example.

That sounds cool. If all else fails, it could be a fun mission-specific unit or artefact.

A map-mod could also be interesting, with both teams just starting with the weapon, or a rezzable wreck.

If you get around to coding, i might spend an hour or two on making a model.

I'd prefer it if we had a game ending 60K unit like the one I made for my mod (flies, transforms into ground combat form, stupidly powerful dgun missile). This is because it's far more interactive a way of ending the game and can require a lot more thought and skill from the user.

There's a variety of ways of making a game-ending unit, but they need to cause a lot critical damage fairly quickly while not having any easy counters, but still feeling like it's possible to delay the end or make life harder and even win if you properly break the enemy. They also need to be relatively "newby friendly" in that it shouldn't be easy to permanently lose them.

Some random ideas brainstormed:

* A simple teleporting Detriment with a "home base" building that needs a ton of powering to teleport it around would count (it inevitably ends the game eventually unless you kill the "home" but has counterplay to delay the end by ambushing with ultimatums and armies to damage it into retreating or by pushing in and striking or stunning the teleporter).

* A detri-level resurrecting mech that returns to larval form when "destroyed" which will rez itself against after a bit. Said larval form being invincible (and stun immune!) but needs take less than X damage over a 10 seconds period or it will return to life. Can also have jump and modest movement speed to allow it to inevitably return to friendly lines but be delayable by good play and cooperation by the enemy team.

* Basically my mod game ender but with respawn and modest nerfs: Giant supercloak (800e/s but can recloak under fire after, say, 7 seconds without firing) stealth plane with a big dgun bomb and modest ground lasers, transforms into a nasty ground mech. When destroyed can be respawned for cheap (e.g. 3k metal) by a "home base" building over a couple of minutes. Allows various bits of counterplay such as quick reacting air and AA to bring it down before it can recloak and ground forces to fight the mech, while still inevitably winning the game eventually if the base building isn't destroyed.

* Super soldier serum building. Transform a given unit into a "supersoldier" version with boosts varying according to its cost (e.g. a glaive might get 100xhp, 10x regen, 2x speed, 10x dps, 2x range, while a cyclops would get a mere 10xhp, 2x speed, 2x damage, 0.5xreload, 1.5x range). Only one boosted unit allowed at a time (boosting a new one removes the boost of the old one). Destroying the building doesn't kill the supersoldier!

Hmm...
Wonder if I should make a new thread for this?

I'd probably implement any of the above if I thought they had a good chance at getting merged.