Somewhere (on the site, i think) i saw a line saying that "morphing units is an actual cool innovative and awesome feature"(don't know if it's still there), but i feel like morph is kind of forgotten, or abandoned. I'm not saying that it's unused or useless or anything like that. I feel like someone might feel lied to if he sees how it actually looks. Few years ago we had a Morty morphing to a Golden Morty with dual cannons and it was pretty nice and satisfying. Right now morphing has no other value than just getting a unit cheaper or getting a unit from a fac we don't own. It's somewhat not satisfying - morphing needs big rework i think, or maybe even a partial removal. It just looks like a placeholder in most cases, but also making it look cooler will take a huge amount of work (many new units). Giving most units their gold versions would make it really interesting i think - they would be of course impossible to get without morphing, and they would reward the player, so unit preservation would be more important and thus - the gameplay would be more various. What's your opinion? And i'm most interested how do devs see morphing.
+2 / -0
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http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/4128?threadID=4128&page=0imo morph in its current state is perfect, there are just not enough morphes. it doesnt need any actual new units it just needs a morph option for most units, right now a lot of facs dont have any morphs at all. unique units through morph would be a nightmare to make and would imo not really do anything for the game. also not sure if the gameplay gets more various if the good old "spam it until it dies" strategy gets nerfed by lack of gold units.
+1 / -0
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I personally like morphing units, although I often times forget to pay attention to unit exp when playing. When I do morph, I do it for at least one of the three following reasons: 1) Access to useful tech I don't have(zeus-crabe, flea-glaive-warrior, rocko-recluse, leveler-banisher) 2) Free buildpower and shortered rally distance to get a much faster return on investment than usual (reaper-goliath, glaive-warrior, etc.) 3) Because cool (ravager-reaper-goliath) I think it would be sad to see morph removed the way it functions right now. But I really like the idea of having special colour schemes or something else that distinguishes morphed units, just to make that morph even more rewarding. Slightly offtopic - perhaps there could be an award for morphing? Either in longest chain morphed or total metal used for morphs. Commorphs excluded. I don't really see what harm it would do.
+4 / -0
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I think gunships, planes and ampbs should have morph options too. And, it would be really cool to have some unique units which cannot be built, like Moho. Also morphing is the only one way to 1) Get gauss on water 2) Get newton on water 3) Get 5 DDMs where u can build only 2 4) Get 3 Ani where u can build only 4) Get DDM on water
+2 / -0
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@sfirebanana - those are bugs. Bugs and the need to update morph highlight that this misfeature has maintenance associated with it. Somebody has to spend time caring for this edge-case barely-used random feature.
+1 / -0
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Morph is feature bloat. Here are generally the reasons I don't like it: 1) It is based on unit experience, which works through an obscure, semi-silly, and mostly unknown formula 2) Morph chains make little sense because they were designed in a 2-faction, multi-tech-tier game 3) It breaks immersion with some of its silly quirks (such as already mentioned: overlapping footprints and non-water structures on water)
+4 / -2
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Sometimes I forget morph is even in this game, I don't think I've ever actually used it, both morphing and unit xp seem to be random pointless extras If you want it to be an actual feature maybe you should make it more apparent, for example with an icon above its head or a glow perhaps, because currently I never even notice it's possible Also what waldo says, there's not really any defined tiers in this game so some of the morphs don't even make sense. Probably the only time I could see myself bothering to morph (assuming I notice it's doable) is if I want to fake having another lab
+2 / -1
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It already has icon(experience) which show that you can morph. I do use morph and I like it. One sad thing that crabe doesnt morph to dante anymore.
+2 / -0
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It's funny how many (good) players get fooled into thinking their opponent made another lab when facing a glaive among fleas. I like morph, and i think it somewhat makes sense (even from a balance perspective). The exact formula doesn't really matter to me, it's quite obvious that units get xp for doing (metal) damage, and a lot more for killing something. That's all you need to know as player.
+5 / -0
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I think morph should be a special unit ability, something one or multiple units were designed around. A feature that makes certain picked units more unique, similar to jump and dguns. Existing examples for this are commanders, moho geo, and bidirectional shield/jam tower/kbot. There could be more such things - puppies multiplying without wreckages comes to mind.
+1 / -0
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I think it could be nice for some of domain-dependant units to be able to morph to their other-domain counterparts. Like, Typhoon <-> Mace (even if aesthetically that would be lol). Also, no flying unit has morph currently. Can rapiers be allowed to morph into BD, and Banshees into Brawlers?
+4 / -0
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If it were purely up to me I would remove morph. Basically, this: quote:
1) It is based on unit experience, which works through an obscure, semi-silly, and mostly unknown formula
2) Morph chains make little sense because they were designed in a 2-faction, multi-tech-tier game
3) It breaks immersion with some of its silly quirks (such as already mentioned: overlapping footprints and non-water structures on water) |
I had my fun back in the day with morphing Janus to Penetrator on Folsom Dam but the mechanic makes no sense with the current tech system. The morph tree is based around the old 2 tier, 2 faction system. The morphs are now arbitrary side-grades which I think detract from the playstyle of each factory by adding a few rare units to the lineup. It also depends on a XP mechanic which I think is entirely unnecessary. Units are sufficiently interesting by themselves and the reward for saving a unit from death is an extra unit. There are no new morphs because nobody both likes and cares about the system enough to update it. Nobody hates the system strongly enough to fight for its removal. So we are left with legacy. Flea morphs to Glaive because Flea was the scout for that factory. Zeus morphs to Crabe because Crabe was a T2 Bot. I only see a few types of morphs used seriously, for example:
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Flea -> Glaive/Warrior to fill out Spider DPS for Venoms.
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Zeus -> Crabe because Crabe is awesome.
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Ravager -> Reaper for a lot of HP.
In the case of Fleas that hole should be fixed (and may well have been with damage Venom) while the other morphs merely mean that the player should make an extra factory. People can make "Epic Plays" with some morphed unit which changes the game dramatically but this is not necessarily good. We could add a whole bunch of arbitrary and obscure features which could be used to make unexpected moves. This may make the game look "dramatic" for a while but eventually people would just have to learn the web of arbitrary moves and take them into account. Such a web is also inelegant. So I do not think the opportunity for "Epic Plays" is justification for anything on its own. Just as a note, turret morphing seems to be a staple of porcy chicken games. There are 3 morphs which I think work well. These morphs were designed:
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Geothermal
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Cloaker
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Shield
+6 / -1
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Why cant fleas morph to detris anymore :(
+2 / -0
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I have an example here of a game where @DrunkenMaster had all his base destroyed, he was left with a Dante, he morphed it to Bantha and continue fighting with the team. Eventually, he morphed the banta to detri (took a looong while) and helped win the game. Is it unexpected that a veteran dante could become a bantha and then a detri? This chain of morphs sounds reasonable to me. And there are certainly others. http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/228654
+1 / -0
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Answers to many questions are found in my post. quote:
also not sure if the gameplay gets more various if the good old "spam it until it dies" strategy gets nerfed by lack of gold units. |
Keeping units alive is its own reward. quote:
Also, no flying unit has morph currently. Can rapiers be allowed to morph into BD, and Banshees into Brawlers? |
They did not morph in the past and nobody wants to add any more. quote:
Why cant fleas morph to detris anymore :( |
Something must have broken and nobody has any interest in maintaining the system. quote:
I have an example here of a game where @DrunkenMaster had all his base destroyed, he was left with a Dante, he morphed it to Bantha and continue fighting with the team. Eventually, he morphed the banta to detri (took a looong while) and helped win the game.
Is it unexpected that a veteran dante could become a bantha and then a detri? This chain of morphs sounds reasonable to me. And there are certainly others.
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See "Epic Plays". What is your expectation based on? As far as I can tell, most morphs were implemented both based on the models looking similar or due to perceived similar roles. There are some outliers, for example Zeus -> Crabe makes no sense as both units have completely different models and roles. The Dante -> Bantha -> Detri morph is purely because at one point they were the only Kitchen Sink Units of their weight class and they are all Striders. The roles are quite different though. Dante is sort of a glass cannon assault/riot, Bantha is best used as a Skirmisher and Detriment is a game ender. Can anyone come up with a reasonable morph system from scratch? What would be your criteria for including or rejecting a proposed morph path? quote:
Can rapiers be allowed to morph into BD, and Banshees into Brawlers? |
What is the rational for this? To hazard a guess I assume it is because Brawlers and Banshees are white while Rapier and Blackdawn are not. But you could create many more reasons. Banshee and Blackdawn have short range while Rapier and Brawler have long range. Banshee and Blackdawn use their high speed to stay safe while Rapier and Brawler rely on their range. A game-permeating and sensical morph system would rely on the ability to lock units into specific roles and form a chain of direct upgrades. I only like morphs which are part of the unit design. It makes no sense to stick a bunch of morphs to units and then pretend that it will have no effect on the game. But that said, I disliked Golden Morty. Golden Morty was an upgrade for a Rogue-like unit with Hammer projectile physics which added a second gun barrel to the model, doubling its DPS. This morph relied on XP and iirc cost about as much as producing a Morty from scratch. I dislike this type of system because I do not think that this game should be about micromanaging your units to ensure that they "level up" efficiently. The level of micromanagement required for that is nowhere close to outweighing the possible depth gain. Here are some effects that could be said to add depth:
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It allows players to effectively produce units at the front line for no BP cost.
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It encourages 'farming' enemy units for XP. This includes hold firing your max level units for easy engagements.
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It discourages feeding units into your opponent, if some units are doomed then they may want to self-d.
These are some of the effects of the mechanic. I don't even want the effects so it is not a question of finding a good way to implement the mechanic. It is simply a matter of not adding the mechanic at all.
+3 / -0
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    GoogleFrogI hope your exclusion of the Comm morph was accidental. Comm morph is a good one - even without the module system the idea of morphing your comm into higher weight to keep it relevant as the game progresses is nice. Skasi - while the shield/cloaker morphs work well, making combat units around it would feel too much like a micro-intensive version of the Slasher/Crabe. I think Morph's sweet-spot is for utility units where you're going to be morphing them outside of combat so the micro isn't as high-stress. For example, I'd like to see the Athena morph into a factory with a small cloakfield that has Athena's buildlist - it would provide a more queue-friendly approach to making units.
+4 / -0
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Comm morphs are a different category. They have their own problems which prevent me from wanting to work on it. At least it does not require XP and comms only ave O(1) effect on the game.
+0 / -0
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its already in the game, and its fun. its fun even for some of the people that actually say that they hate the mechanic. dont remove features (or call them bloat) because they dont fit into a theoretical concept of what a fun game should be. fun and theory dont work together too well. "They did not morph in the past and nobody wants to add any more." --> http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/4128?threadID=4128&page=0quite a lot of people seemed to share the idea to add more morphs, just the actual adding seems to be the problem. i dont know how messy of a work it is, generally i would be open for doing that. "Something must have broken and nobody has any interest in maintaining the system." crabes can no longer morph into dante, thats the gap. was changed into scorp which makes more sense since its also a spider-like thing. "A game-permeating and sensical morph system would rely on the ability to lock units into specific roles and form a chain of direct upgrades." i like that morph can break up unit roles in certain, select cases. why should everything be locked into pathes forever? plus when were talking about striders, there are only so many and there are very few overlaps in roles, bantha and det are both assaults, but thats about it. otherwise most morphes are already strictly inside their role so i dont see that there would be any problem with this. "Sometimes I forget morph is even in this game, I don't think I've ever actually used it, both morphing and unit xp seem to be random pointless extras " yeah but you didnt do lots of stuff and just because you didnt do it yet doesnt mean its pointless. it just means that its not necessary to morph to win games, and thats good. thats actually what makes it so good, its entirely non-mandatory. that its based on xp is debatable but nowhere near as horrible or confusing as luckywaldo describes it, its quite simple how you get xp: hit/kill stuff and dont die. thats really the most self-explanatory thing there is if you ever played like, a computer game.
+2 / -0
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