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Title: [A] Teams All Welcome (32p)
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.10.1.7
Engine version: 105.1.1-841-g099e9d0
Battle ID: 1321077
Started: 2 years ago
Duration: 49 minutes
Players: 29
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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can we talk about dirtbags?
suggestions:
* hill-auto-decay
* zerocost terrain restore

can we talk about shield-link? at a certain point, it just stacks too well with no risk/cost increase :
suggestions:
* limit link transferred energy
* limit max links (to 3?)
* cool-down for recharge/link when damaged (cannot gain hp for 10? sec after last hit)
* nerf energy upkeep for recharging
* nerf energy upkeep when fully charged
+4 / -0


2 years ago
quote:
* nerf energy upkeep for recharging


Future wars route.
+0 / -0
Designing the game around 16v16 seems like one huge game of whack-a-mole. Every time one addresses a particular manifestation of degeneracy (shields/artillery/dirtbags/whatever the flavour of the month is) another one takes its place.
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminAquanim degenerency is stronk with this one. also, i gave multiple suggestions, which, if selected wisely, barely affect other game types/player sizes. this is just annoyance, as it kills of normal game interaction.
+1 / -0
quote:
Designing the game around 16v16 seems like one huge game of whack-a-mole.

I agree that shields become really absurd at some point. I don`t think 10+ shields are ever build outside of clusterpots.

quote:
Every time one addresses a particular manifestation of degeneracy
(shields/artillery/dirtbags/whatever the flavour of the month is) another one takes its place.

Completely agree, but we have started to play it already. I have to admit, there was a brief phase where cloaked spam was the cancer of the hour, and that was the only time when cancer was actually enjoyable for me personally. More enjoyable than the current lance/impaler-bs.

What I mean is that if we can`t find a balanced version of the game, we might maybe try to find an enjoyable one. Idk how other players think about this, but I don`t think it is fun being pork-pushed despite having 2 merlins.
+0 / -0

2 years ago
also, to proof that something is wrong, i normally would recommend to "abuse till fix". with this issue, it just makes the game so unpleasant, that it would drive (new) players away™
+0 / -0

2 years ago
About shields:

I think one should look at their scaling. One or 2 shields are pretty weak, but at some point the spam beomes nearly impossible to kill.
Yes, there is shockley, but:
- If sufficiently spread out, shockley does not disable enough shields.
- You need something else to kill the shields afterwards, napalm too low damage, eos too expensive, units usually get killed by enemy-units or pork when trying to kill shields.
- Using shockley needs knowledge about where the aspis actually are. This alone can be pretty hard.

+0 / -0
To clarify my opinion:

* I don't have a strong opinion as to whether something needs to be done about shield spam as seen in this game.

* I think that Dirtbag spam is typically not being responded to effectively, and that if the community learns more about how to respond to Dirtbag spam it will be less annoying.

* I think that Dirtbag spam is one of a limited number of strategies effective against, for example, Lance-heavy strategies commonly held to be strong in dense team games. As such it has the potential to contribute to a varied and healthy metagame, and I would not like to see that wasted.

* Despite the previous two points, some change to Dirtbag may be a good idea, but I would like to see more thought put into working out ways to beat it first. Personally I think one of the best counters is indirect; a Dirtbag-spamming opponent has typically also made it difficult for them to attack *you*, so rushing a tacsilo/nuke/superweapon/whatever is appropriate becomes a stronger option.
+3 / -0

2 years ago
+1 for free (or energy-only) Restore Terrain.

Dirtbags are funny as an assault unit (but well counterable by high AoE units), so I'm against nerfs against that use case such as a cost increase.
+0 / -0