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Alternative to kicking new players: tutorial voting

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26 days ago
The ability for a brand new player to join and try to learn the game during games completely derails lobpot.

Propose: Give players a way to vote for a player into a mode where they can't play lobpot until they finish the tutorial. Say, 10 votes by 10 distinct players?
+2 / -0

26 days ago
or a minimum experience level value is introduced to access the wellcome team
+2 / -0
26 days ago
Like many things that look good on paper, this is too idealistic. If they are forced to complete the tutorial, they will just mindlessly go though it without any benefit to anyone and come back to the pot with vengeance.
+2 / -0

26 days ago
Should you also be forced to be ranked to blue+ in 1v1 to be allowed to play with blues in teams?

What if you have training wheels on every game and don't know it?
+0 / -1


26 days ago
Could just have zero-k set a flag that temporarily adjusts the player's elo down 500 for the purpose of balancing if the lobby finds they haven't finished the first couple of campaign missions.
+1 / -0
quote:
The ability for a brand new player to join and try to learn the game during games completely derails lobpot.

I'm sorry I don't understand, how does it derail the lobpot? doesn't the balancer take into account really low-ranked people?

I am against this because people shouldn't be forced what to do, you should suggest to them to take the tutorial first, but you shouldn't force them to by excluding them from playing with other people.
+3 / -0
(partially joking) I would rather have them answer 5 questions in English (and/or fill in what they can speak). I think it is nice to teach/share tips, but occasionally it is possible that they do not understand at all what we are trying to communicate.

On a more practical approach I feel we have a problem communicating clearly with some players (chat is too small and people can miss it, and same issue with map markers). There should be an easy an simple way to communicate with players concise actions (Ex: "move units front", "build me a con", "do not build more storage"). Things not great now: it is hard to know what is the current set of messages for you; there is no way to "acknowledge" (mark as read).

Maybe something like a small floating window with "messages to/from other players" with a "delete/don't care" and an "acknowledge/will do" (for incoming messages).

Bonus: if you can make an "team asks", something like "team asks not to build singu here but help existing one" and everybody that agrees can "check" such that the player in question sees "team mates A,B,C ask you to: ..."
+2 / -0
quote:
(partially joking) I would rather have them answer 5 questions in English (and/or fill in what they can speak). I think it is nice to teach/share tips, but occasionally it is possible that they do not understand at all what we are trying to communicate.

On a more practical approach I feel we have a problem communicating clearly with some players (chat is too small and people can miss it, and same issue with map markers). There should be an easy an simple way to communicate with players concise actions (Ex: "move units front", "build me a con", "do not build more storage"). Things not great now: it is hard to know what is the current set of messages for you; there is no way to "acknowledge" (mark as read).

Maybe something like a small floating window with "messages to/from other players" with a "delete/don't care" and an "acknowledge/will do" (for incoming messages).

Bonus: if you can make an "team asks", something like "team asks not to build singu here but help existing one" and everybody that agrees can "check" such that the player in question sees "team mates A,B,C ask you to: ..."


Jira integration when?

But on a serious note the nature of RTS games is that there can be nothing happening to instantly 15 things happening at different places on the map. Different skill levels lose track or don't properly prioritize beyond a certain threshold. Short of yanking control from them, there's little you can do once someone has been overwhelmed with information. Any attempt at grabbing their attention is just one more thing pulling on their sleeve.

I haven't seen any good solution to this other than experience or voice chat. Experience takes time and public voice chat tends to either be turned off or people berating each other.
+4 / -1
26 days ago
no we need to kick more!!!

but player need to know exactly why he/she was kicked

and have some change to kick so ppl dont get kicked from room but kicked from battle to spec like they just resigned so they can wach and maybe ASK why they were kicked imo lots of ppl will see kick as personal attack so they dont wait 5 min how do u know u only banned for 5?

msg on screan for 5 min you were voted out do to example storage spam we can have some common things highlighted in kick window in dropdown menu so that player know why

he then see that for 5 min on screan so it will sink in

but if u just kick someone who is overwelmed with info new player is like wtf just happened and he is like fck this game and so on

also imo problem is with some old players doing bad stuff from start like 4 storages start or athena spam if im new i may try same but old play may have strat in mind that new player dont get or the old player is just bad and new player cant see that just yet

i do have my personal solution for that problem... i just spam singu so they can just throw metal on enemy and win from good eco but then if i dont do that i find myself at fron with no E and storage forrest at back with 3 SW being made at same time with no grid and lvl 4 commanders

this is frustrating im just average player so i do need my TEAM

but if i get some new player that i can gues what they will do and some old that i know will start with storage and athena rush u r -3 or 4 ppl from the start on top of that 2 go air and 1 making shield ball that take time other making domi ball and in 12v12 u play 12v6 and game last 5-10 min and all in lobby is like wtf happened
+0 / -0

26 days ago
I for one support minimum level to play (not spectate) some autohosts, nothing too high - say lvl 5, 10? I don't know what's equivalent to 5 games vs bots or 1v1s. It ensures that people were at least exposed to game mechanics before joining the multiplayer experience.
+0 / -0
I've lost count of how many times some iteration of mandatory tutorial idea was proposed, but this one takes the cake by the tutorial being imposed by a lynch mob.
+8 / -0
25 days ago
quote:
Short of yanking control from them, there's little you can do once someone has been overwhelmed with information. Any attempt at grabbing their attention is just one more thing pulling on their sleeve.
So you like the current chat that: shows useless information (yes/no votes on all votes), has spec chat (mostly banter), does not mark in any way messages for you (even lobby makes it at least different color)?

And do you like - for example - the experience of sharing a unit/requesting for a unit to be shared? (you need to select unit, press tab, find player in a list of X players and click share)
+0 / -0
i just suggest a simple tutorial thats obligatory in the first log in the game.
The tutorial should be short ,no more than 30 min,it just needs to teach the bare basics like:
line move,economy basics (dont spam storages,dont excess ,allways use all youre metal,metal is shared) ,expand is win,basic controls.
Things that are simple to understand.This should also make smurfing more annoying to do.

Allmost all MP games have something like this!

seeing level 0 players figuring the basics out like movement and stuff does not make me happy to have them on my team,and actually results in kicks which does not help player retention.
+5 / -0
That would work so long as it doesn't affect private games. Natural Selection 2 had a tutorial requirement for private games.. it completely fucks up things like LAN parties where you have to wait 45 minutes for everyone to finish a tutorial before actually playing.

(A "skip tutorial" would just be easily clickable and ignored, so it's not exactly a good workaround)
+1 / -0
Also

quote:
I've lost count of how many times some iteration of mandatory tutorial idea was proposed, but this one takes the cake by the tutorial being imposed by a lynch mob.


The current state of things is that a single player can derail games to the point where everyone just leaves the lobpot. Kicks aren't allowed for new players and reporting does nothing. It really feels like there needs to be something in between.

When ten people complain, game after game over weeks about a single person, maybe it makes sense to find a fix.

Mind you, I never actually gave any specifics about how to implement this, so I'm not sure why this would necessarily need to be a "lynch mob" (who needs principle of charity anyway). For example, one way to implement this would be to have the votes forwarded to a mod if it goes over 10. That way we have mod discretion rather than mob discretion.
+2 / -0

24 days ago
quote:
The current state of things is that a single player can derail games to the point where everyone just leaves the lobpot.


When does this happen? Can you show battles?
+2 / -1
24 days ago
How can games get derailed? The train factory only exists in our imaginations.
+2 / -0
24 days ago
Imo below lvl 5 should be the start of voting to kick a new player. It takes a little time to learn certain things like not building energy pylons early. And to always secure and reclaim sites that have tons of wreckage. These are things that new players(like myself) generally don't apply to their strategy which can either make for a super short game or a prolonged handicapped beatdown from an experienced player.
+0 / -0
quote:
When does this happen? Can you show battles?


Recent games with Kids and Kids2504 are good examples. Around https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1273526, people were refusing to play with Kids2504, then went into spec. It's not the first time.

Not sure if it's a language difference or what, but no matter how many people ask them to play the tutorial, they just.. don't. It's about as tedious as it is ineffective.

Most of these issues are a direct result of balancing being broken where small games prioritize giving new players to the weaker team. When players like Kids2504 refuse to learn and can't take a hint, it directly leads to a cascade of players leaving and the lobpot dies for the night. It's a guaranteed loss that nobody wants to deal with. It happens regularly.
+1 / -0
yeah the kids guys look like griefers to me more than anything,i have allready reported them for a game where zenfur went afk to bathroom or something,and they kept unpausing the game.

I dont think a tutorial makes ppl behave in a socially acceptable way.But it will help newcomers not get bashed in mp games ,and help them understand the game better,before jumping in to mp games
+1 / -0
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