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Map: DeltaSiegeDry Deluxe V3
 DeltaSiegeDry Deluxe V3
Title: [A] Teams All Welcome
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.8.12.1
Engine version: 104.0.1-1544-ge1f249f
Battle ID: 1030184
Started: 3 years ago
Duration: 35 minutes
Players: 13
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 37.9%

ILrankyuvyuv
RUrankOntheheavens
GBrankJonathan1321
BRrankbrunocb
USrankOffTarget
unknownrankTheIgnored1
LTranklukaslukaslukis
Team 2
Chance of victory: 62.1%

GBrankDoggystylus
DErankLeopardhunter
USrankcastlekside
BRrankTROGLODITA
NLrankplayforfun31
RUrankfasik
Spectators
TRrankTrojaner_
AUrankAdminAquanim
ESrankShyrka
GBrankScrutator
BRrankHerus
DErankzxkplayer
DErankHoppili
NLrankPrecious

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RUrankOntheheavens
3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)
There is a recurring problem I notice in teamgames: players pick air/gunship en masse, so remaining players are forced to contest ground with inadequate forces, which leads, in most cases, in failure and frustration.

Air IS NOT ok in small teams, period. IT HARMS the team MORE than it does support.

These were games with RUrankizirayd which really showcased this isssue.

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1029496
https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1029481

Battle which I am commenting on is another such case. Sure, I can agree that VERY competent air which has A LOT of experience CAN pull its weight in terms of metal. DErankJummy, GBrankTechAUmNu, GBrankddaboqepp are prime examples. But air has become popular as a first plop SO MUCH, that it gets picked by players who DO NOT know the game. As a result, all they do is feed.

Moreover, what is main flaw of air is its inability to HOLD LAND. Its the same as flying snitch: flashy, boomy, but has ZERO staying power. Actual units that walk, drive and do pew-pew are SO MUCH MORE useful when you need to TAKE AND HOLD metal spots. Its just obvious.
+0 / -0


EErankAdminAnarchid
3 years ago
quote:
But air has become popular as a first plop SO MUCH, that it gets picked by players who DO NOT know the game. As a result, all they do is feed.

How are they supposed to learn without trying?
+2 / -0
RUrankOntheheavens
3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)
Fine. Consider another example: player does know how to play (supposedly?), yet without him taking ground fac and making ground units his teammates are unable to hold any substantial ground, be it due to lack of metal value in ground units/lack of skill on the ground units. Again I will refer you to the games I linked.
+0 / -0
USrankfloomby
3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)
quote:
Air IS NOT ok in small teams, period. IT HARMS the team MORE than it does support.


I think this is incorrect. I believe small teams is where air is the strongest.
+0 / -0
FRrankmalric
3 years ago
quote:
Air IS NOT ok in small teams, period. IT HARMS the team MORE than it does support.
You mean more than ONE air is not ok. Without any air, if opponent has air, by the time you switch, team lost 2-3 coms and everybody is vote resigning ...

People plopping without caring for anything (map, other people factory, skill) is annoying, but not much can be done about it...
+3 / -0

PLrankizirayd
3 years ago
In a 2v2 game, air is not used. In 3v3 games, air must be selected. There are whole tournaments where teams play this way and win
+0 / -0

AUrankAdminAquanim
3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)
There have been points in time where air first was quite reasonable even in tournament level 2v2 (on some maps, anyway). I am not sure it's true any more though, since Raven and the early gunship options are not as powerful as they have been at some points in the past.

It's certainly true that even in 3v3-5v5, in a random pick-up game rather than one with a bunch of pros, if you are one of the higher rated players on the team you need to be careful about when you pick air. If your team doesn't have enough competent players on the ground to hold however many fronts heed to be held then it's probably not clever to go air.

quote:
People plopping without caring for anything (map, other people factory, skill) is annoying, but not much can be done about it...

Agreed. Plopping too many air facs is perhaps one of the more obvious plop mistakes but it's far from being the only one.
+0 / -0
RUrankOntheheavens
3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)
quote:
In 3v3 games, air must be selected. There are whole tournaments where teams play this way and win


Pray tell then, why it is that team which had an air lost spectacularly in the games I linked?

I'll give you one reason: those were not tournament games. I am talking about casual Teams All Welcome games. You cant be purple and choose air, leaving ground to coppers. You are bound to fail.

quote:
I believe small teams is where air is the strongest.


Fair enough, it IS strongest there. But since it has ZERO ground holding capability, any multipliers make no difference whatsoever between small or big teams, in terms of ground value.

quote:
Without any air, if opponent has air, by the time you switch, team lost 2-3 coms and everybody is vote resigning ...


Ill tell you exactly what happens when team does not have air. It builds some AA and advances hard. After 10 crashers, 2 felons and 2 aspis no comparable amount of air is going to make any substantial damage. Air essentially invested obscene amount of metal into something, that will die like flies and be only metal feed, while leaving team with inferior ground force.

See this one in particular. https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1029496

Purple player going air is essentially a big clear exclamation ''I am not going to push''. Prove me wrong.

quote:
if you are one of the higher rated players on the team you need to be careful about when you pick air. If your team doesn't have enough competent players on the ground to hold however many fronts heed to be held then it's probably not clever to go air.


Now this is a statemen I can get behind.
+0 / -0
FIrankKapy
3 years ago
[Spoiler]
+1 / -0
FRrankmalric
3 years ago
(edited 3 years ago)
quote:
Ill tell you exactly what happens when team does not have air. It builds some AA and advances hard.
If map is (very) small the invested amount will be comparable to the air investment. If map is large, the fact that EVERYBODY in enemy team has to invest is quite a win. Also, you mention "enemy builds aa" and "enemy advances", that sounds quite wishful thinking. They could also start building chainsaw-s in base...

Let me put it differently, When team is not smart enough to "build aa" and "advance" if there is no good air player not much can be done - hard to help people across the map. When team is smart enough even if one of the good player is air, they will win as air investment is either mirrored or AA investment by multiple teams gives an econ advantage (and after some time can switch from air anyhow).

But I fully agree with you that more than one air is generally (unless 16v16 or so) not a valid investment.
+0 / -0

PLrankizirayd
3 years ago
These games are not an indicator, since I did not play at full strength
+0 / -0

LVrankSenaven
3 years ago
quote:
In a 2v2 game, air is not used. In 3v3 games, air must be selected. There are whole tournaments where teams play this way and win


Depends also on map. Titan duel for example is more bad for small team air then good.
+0 / -0

LVrankSenaven
3 years ago
quote:
Air IS NOT ok in small teams, period. IT HARMS the team MORE than it does support.



You already had some games where you was punished with planes. Gunship is another story. As more individualist who relay on mass unit ball you should learn ZK more to understand how it works. Of course here is 10 - 15 peoples in server who understand how to use plane factory.
+0 / -0