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Title: [A] Pro 1v1 Host
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.9.7.0
Engine version: 104.0.1-1544-ge1f249f
Started: 12 months ago
Duration: 11 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 58.4%

USrankRiposteR
Team 2
Chance of victory: 41.6%

CArankPetTurtle
Spectators

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12 months ago
PetTurtle playing with a widget that makes his units better at dodging...not that fun when your units are just worse than the opponents.
+9 / -0

12 months ago
In addition, if there are going to be mods that make units dodge so well, all projectile speeds need to be rebalanced.
+0 / -0
That one knight with no orders dodged like 80+ buoy shots by itself it seems, coming at him 3 and more at a time(actually at one point it dodged 30+ buoy shots from 6 buoys that were all around it, even while slowed), it had the maneuver move state thou, are units supposed to still do the dodging near enemies? And is the dodging movement with attack move supposed to actually dodge incoming projectiles or just move automatically from side to side near enemies? I really dont know, I think I always use hold position. But that one hero knight was really good at dodging even when slowed down, I could never micro dodges that well.

And reaver on hold position with move order to enemy base dodges buoy projectiles while moving, never seen this before :o
(56 buoy projectiles dodged before getting hit, total over 100 dodges from 3 buoys before being killed. Buoys suck.)

Wheres the button to enable that unit behavior?
+2 / -0


12 months ago
I once accused PetTurtle of using AI in a cloak v cloak match on quicksilver. His units were all just microd so well in unexpected ways, but at the time, he flat out denied it. Was there more truth to that situation, which was leading upto this one?

Whilst this kind of stuff IS interesting, afaic it's more fuel on the no-custom-widgets allowed in ranked mm games fire.
+0 / -0


12 months ago
What did PT have to say on the matter?

This replay looks like some unfair human vs AI bs

+2 / -0


12 months ago
Great job ruining it for all of us.
+2 / -3


12 months ago
quote:
That one knight with no orders dodged like 80+ buoy shots by itself it seems

I'm not sure widgets can make units move without orders.
+1 / -0
I want this dodging merged to master, it's pretty good. B)

End skirm oppression!

I am pleased this exists as it means I'll stop having to micro reavers to avoid skirm shots. That's tedious boring shit and a good game should not require tedious boring shit for you to win.

CArankPetTurtle: When's the PR coming?

Though this'll of course mean some rebalancing changes so there are counters to things like Reaver spam in each factory... Probably just adding a slight homing effect for Bouy, Ronin and Rogue.
+2 / -0
Really speaks a lot about people using such unfair advantages in ranked games and being upset like USrankShaman when it's exposed.

quote:
That one knight with no orders dodged like 80+ buoy shots

It had orders inserted into queue every time a shot was detected near it. Only they weren't manually ordered by the player but by their cheat bot. You can hold shift and see exactly when the cheat takes effect.

Reminds me when that one guy had an actual AI play the game for him. Or all those other completely legal unit catapult aimbots.

Here's a radical suggestion, actually punish such intentional cheaters. Also disable custom widgets for matchmaker games.
+0 / -2

12 months ago
quote:
also disable custom widgets for matchmaker games.


I like that idea, since I don't use any widgets at all, it seems kind of unfair.
+3 / -0
quote:
Though this'll of course mean some rebalancing changes so there are counters to things like Reaver spam in each factory... Probably just adding a slight homing effect for Bouy, Ronin and Rogue.

Things used to turn much slower (especially pre-superfluid), and when they become much snappier. The projectiles were not made faster to compensate.

Possibly these physics chances have in fact made this automation good enough to happen. Maybe the weapon and unit physics can be rejiggered to compensate and make it much less reliable.

I remember manually dodging with knight being much more iffy than it is now that it turns on a dime. I assume this change in manual behavior reflects the automated behavior to a degree as well.

quote:
I want this dodging merged to master, it's pretty good. B)

It likely does very expensive calls to "get projectiles in rectangle" which will be prohibitive for larger games.

A gadget reimplementation could be cheaper, but that would be a port to luaruels, not a merge.
+1 / -0
quote:
Really speaks a lot about people using such unfair advantages in ranked games and being upset like USrankShaman when it's exposed.

I believe Shaman's comment was more along the lines of "ruining the making of widgets in general" rather than "ruining the secret that this particular widget exists".

quote:
Reminds me when that one guy had an actual AI play the game for him. Or all those other completely legal unit catapult aimbots.

USrankArchangel had an AI play the game for him. The admins came to the conclusion that this was untenable and required Archangel to stop. Archangel did not stop, which was a contributing factor to Archangel's subsequent permanent ban from the community. When something is determined to in fact be unacceptable abuse of widgets/AI control/similar we do take that seriously.

I am not aware of a compelling reason to designate any unit catapult widget I know about as not legal. They don't seem to result in degenerate gameplay.

quote:
Here's a radical suggestion, actually punish such intentional cheaters.

I don't see a reasonable case for this being bannable. The admins could conceivably decide that future use of such a widget is bannable but that is a very different thing to it being bannable retroactively. I think even that is pretty unlikely in this case, since the line between valid and invalid unit micro from a widget is difficult to define, AUrankAdminGoogleFrog is generally against bans for things of this kind, and I believe there are ways to make this widget infeasible in a technical sense instead (although they may be distasteful).

That having been said, if USrankRiposteR requests it I am willing to tag this game as no-elo.
+4 / -0

12 months ago
quote:
I believe there are ways to make this widget infeasible in a technical sense instead

That would be an ideal solution. Buoy could use a buff.
+0 / -0


12 months ago
In a game that has a "competitive" ladder, I don't see how can this be considered acceptable to use.

If you watch the game, Riposter's Buoys were almost useless, they've been balanced around enemy units not auto-dodging. Riposter has made a strategical decision to make Buoys against Warriors and Knights, which in normal circumstances would be fine, but here they've been useless.

What is Riposter meant to do in this situation? Just suck it up and accept playing a loss against a cheater? Tough luck buddy, but PetTurtle's cheats aren't considered cheating, never mind him using them in the competitive ladder to gain an unfair advantage against someone who doesn't know this widget exsits, nevermind that his opponent is using it.

I'd still like to know PT's thought process into thinking this is an OK thing to be doing. Is he not a fan of dealing with skirms so he considers cheating against them acceptable? How is this different from an FPS player not enjoying aiming so programming something to aid him in this regard. Where is the line here Aquanim if this is not considered cheating? Because this doesn't even seem gray to me.
+2 / -0
quote:
How is this different from an FPS player not enjoying aiming so programming something to aid him in this regard.

It is a black and white fact that aimbots are illegal in FPS communities. It is not a black and white fact that widgets which control units are illegal in this community.

To be clear: I do not think the existence of this widget is good for Zero-K, or that it is acceptable for it to exist in the long term. I hope and expect it to be rendered technically infeasible in the near future. I think it is distasteful that somebody has used it in a ranked game without advertising its existence (note that this is discouraged, but not explicitly forbidden, by the Code of Conduct). I am, again, quite willing to retroactively mark this game as no-elo.

However, the bar for "this is so obviously against the rules that any reasonable person should have known it in the absence of a specific admin statement and refrained from doing it, and therefore it is immediately bannable" is very high and I do not think this situation meets it.

--

For the record I am making no statement one way or the other on whether somebody using a widget like this again in the time between now and when it is rendered infeasible would be modactioned. As far as I am concerned that is a policy decision for AUrankAdminGoogleFrog to make and I am unaware of it having been made at this time.
+2 / -0


12 months ago
This widget gave such an advantage it decided this game very quickly, as a result of Riposter's unit choices, which in a normal game would have been fine.

A widget that gives a game winning advantage to one player over the other, who does not even know he is up against it, is not cheating?!

cheat

verb

1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.
"she always cheats at cards"

This widget and replay is a textbook definition of the word.
+3 / -0


12 months ago
Look, it's really simple. This shit needs out of ranked games, just like every other advantage providing widget that emerged over the years.

Here's a few others that I've ran into that I'm sure are well known:

Edge fire ripper/kodachi/ogre.
Artillery pinpointer.
Autodefensive jump.

And now this.

Every time something like this emerges, the person on the receiving end has no idea what they're walking into - usually assuming even footing, and then has that much more of a difficult time as a result.

I don't care about consequences to PT - all respect to him. I do care that this kind of thing can and does periodically happen and that a solid statement of intent to address it isn't in effect.
+5 / -0
quote:
Riposter has made a strategical decision to make Buoys against Warriors and Knights, which in normal circumstances would be fine, but here they've been useless.

What is Riposter meant to do in this situation?

What's @Riposter supposed to do against someone manually microing a Reaver to avoid being hit by Bouy shots?
I think the issue here is unit AI not being very good and thus some unit interactions being imbalanced with high micro.

btw: every contest is unfair in some way so that's not a very compelling argument. Some people have more experience, have examined unit combinations, watched many replays, set up keyboard shortcuts or discover an OP unit combination and some have made unit AI improvements. That's life, deal with it.

Now, in this case it'd be bad for some to use the widget and some not to because the game isn't balanced around the widget so you get less fun games. Hence there should be changes to zk.
+1 / -0
GBrankdyth68
quote:
What's @Riposter supposed to do against someone microing a Reaver to avoid being hit by Bouy shots?

Take advantage of the fact that they are not directing their attention elsewhere on the map.

DErankPRO_Dregs
quote:
I do care that this kind of thing can and does periodically happen and that a solid statement of intent to address it isn't in effect.

If you are looking for a statement other than "Issues like this will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, potentially in retrospect" then as far as I know you are looking for a change in policy, not a statement of policy. You may be aware of that already, but I may as well make it clear.

(It is not my responsibility to set that policy, nor do I have an especially strong opinion as to what that policy should be. I acknowledge that many people in the community do have strong opinions, several of which are incompatible.)
+4 / -0
quote:
Take advantage of the fact that they are not directing their attention elsewhere on the map.

I assume this was written in error, as the person was not spending any attention on micro. Which is the topic of this discussion. Or maybe I'm dumb, delete this if I completely misunderstood.
+1 / -1
Page of 6 (115 records)